How to Pressure a Woman Into Sleeping With You

Jane is out with Tom on their -th date and they go back to his apartment where they start to hook up.  He asks if he should get a condom.  She says no, she doesn’t want to sleep with him tonight.  (She says ‘tonight’ whether she means it or not because she doesn’t want him to dump her immediately, thinking he’ll never get any).  He gives her a smile, caresses her cheek, and says “ok, that’s fine.”

This is about the time when Tom starts to stroke his own ego.  He thinks to himself, “I am such a good guy.  I can’t believe those jerks who would push themselves on her.  More women should recognize what a good guy I am.  In fact, why can’t more men be more like me?  Look at me being all respectful and all.  I’m even sticking around, to show her how ok with this I am.  God, I’m a good person.” 

Jane, in the meantime, is breathing a very quiet sigh of relief.  “That wasn’t so bad,” she thinks.  “Look, he’s even sticking around – he didn’t get up and leave the second I said no.  He didn’t make me feel guilty, he didn’t ask me why not.  He asked permission first, and was perfectly gracious when I said no.  What a good guy.”

And they’re both feeling pretty good about what a good guy Tom is.

About 10 minutes later, Tom notes that Jane is getting increasingly involved with him and is clearly feeling very, very good about what they are doing.  He knows that women are kind of shy sometimes, and as well that sometimes women change their minds about such things.  He asks, “Are you suuuuure about that condom?”

This is about the time when I want to punch Tom in the face.

This is because men – and often women – do not understand the difference between forcing a woman to have sex, and pressuring a woman to have sex.  So long as the man is not physically and violently forcing himself into her while she screams and cries and fights, we think of it as being completely and 100% consensual.

Being a woman requires always being on defense.  Walking down the street during the day means you have to be on ready alert to glare at any man who harasses you.  Walking down the street at night means perpetually doing reconnaissance about your surroundings, all the while gripping your keys or mace or other weapon of choice.  Being at the office means you need to be cautious about being too friendly with men who may misinterpret your smile as an invitation to sexually harass you, and being on the metro means you need to be wary of standing too close to men who are taller than you because they’ll most likely try to look down your shirt.  It’s actually quite exhausting.

So once Jane has decided that Tom is a good guy and she has nothing to fear from their interaction, her defenses come down.  She tucks them neatly away and enjoys herself.  And it’s such a relief to not have to hold them up so high and so ready.  Until Tom drops the bomb: “Are you suuuure about that condom?”

And suddenly Jane needs to dig down deep and throw up those defenses again in the blink of an eye.  What’s the big deal, you ask?  All she needs to do is say “no”.  But in asking her to say it once again, what Tom is really doing is pressuring her, albeit in a cutsey (read: “manipulative”) way.  He is forcing her into a position where she has to deflect his advances, where she has throw up her defenses and repel his charms – his engaging smile, his soft touch – everything he’s using to convince her that he isn’t a threat and that she should consent to sleeping with him.

Jane isn’t a thousand percent ready for this onslaught, but she rallies her defenses in time.  She gives him a flirtatious laugh and says “yes, I’m sure.”  She laughs to show him that she’s not a bitch.  She smiles flirtatiously because she’s worried about bruising his extremely fragile ego and making him feel rejected.  And so she laughs and smiles to stay on his good side.  And Tom, seeing Jane laugh, has no idea that he’s made her uncomfortable.  They resume whatever level of intimacy they were at.  And 10 minutes later, he says, “Ok, so I’m NOT trying to pressure you.  All I’m saying is that you look really, really amazing, and it’s really, really hard for me not to want you.  I promise I’ll be gentle . . .”

Maybe Jane doesn’t sleep with him that night, but she goes further than she’d originally intended to because now she knows that he really would have rather slept with her.  That he’ll keep asking her, and maybe if she gives him at least a little something, he won’t ask so often.  She can buy herself some time, or else at the very least convince him that she’s not a bitch who was just teasing him.

Tom is probably a good guy.  He probably sees himself as a feminist, as uniquely respectful of women.  He probably didn’t think he was doing anything wrong, or that he was in any way pressuring her.  But men need to consider the position they put us in when they ask over and over again if we want to sleep with them.   When they smile and coyly promise to treat us well, to make us breakfast in bed even, if only we’ll come home with them. Men need to realize that they are not hearing the word ‘no’.

And men and women both need to recognize what pressure looks like.  It’s not rape as we commonly think of it.  It’s not violent, it’s not by a stranger, and it’s not usually malicious.  I don’t think men do this because they are misogynistic or because they hate women or because they don’t respect us.  They just don’t realize that they are making us defend ourselves, that they are making us resist them, over and over and over again.  That is pressure.

Women will have different rules regarding how many times they feel is ok to ask without it turning into pressure.  As far as I’m concerned, better safe than sorry – that means that it’s ok for a man to ask once, and after that he should not bring it up again until the next encounter, at which time I may feel differently.  Sure, maybe a man is right sometimes.  Maybe the woman he’s with is too shy to say she wants it, or doesn’t know how to express it.  Heck, maybe she even does change her mind (for those who are unaware, that actually is allowed).  But even if all of those things are true – better safe than sorry.

The worst that will happen?  You won’t have sex that time.  I promise you’ll survive the night.

 

* After renewed interest in this blog post several weeks ago, and much interesting conversation in the comments section, I wrote the below as a response to the very respectable and reasonable points brought up by many of my readers.

ADDENDUM

My own thinking on this topic has developed quite a bit since I originally wrote this piece after a series of bad encounters with men who didn’t seem to understand what was wrong with asking me such leading questions over and over. Putting me constantly on defense and constantly having to explain myself – as though if I couldn’t articulate in that exact instance an argument they found compelling, I had no right to be refusing them. And so I wrote this piece and received quite a lot of feedback.

I believe ultimately, what it comes down to is not just communication or even over communication, but a question of HOW we communicate about sex, particularly with people who we don’t know very well. I realized after a lot of reflection (long after I wrote this piece), that the reason I felt so strongly about Jane’s verbal “no” is because I am a very verbal person (I am, after all, a writer). I experience the world around me using words and sentence construct and take verbal indications very seriously. To me, a verbal “no” always overrides a physical “yes.” And because part of human nature is assuming other people are like you (do onto others, etc.), I have been assuming that other people are verbal people as well – or even, that men have NOT had encounters with women who were not exactly like me, and perhaps, for whom, a physical “yes” (pulling him in, starting up again), does hold the same weight as the verbal “no”, (if not more), and ergo it was perfectly acceptable for Tom to have assumed Jane wanted to continue.

But a few notes on that. First of all, while it’s possible that such encounters no longer make me feel incredibly, incredibly angry at Tom, I still believe there are better ways of ascertaining how Jane is feeling than by asking pressuring questions. “Are you sure?” “Don’t you think it’d be good?” “Don’t you trust me?” “Why not?” “How do you know you won’t like it with me until you’ve tried it?” “Have you figured out yet why you keep saying no to me?” etc., are all phrases I’ve heard from men (often in rapid succession over the course of the night), and are all phrases I find unacceptable with someone you respect. They’re pressuring – pure and simple.

But there are other ways. If you need ask for clarification because her physical signals seem contrary to her verbal indication, why not ask your questions in a more open-ended way? Here are some examples: “Did you change your mind?” “Do you want me to touch you here?” “Is this ok?” “where you do you want this to go now?” or even “I’m confused – can you help me out?” These are all questions that I (and I know many of my girlfriends) appreciate hearing from someone they’re involved with – it shows you care, it shows you are engaging us as people and not as sex objects, and it doesn’t pressure us to give one answer or another, but often demands that we take even further responsibility for our actions and don’t leave everything up to you.

Of course, this doesn’t solve the problem of how we communicate. Some people are simply not verbal people, and they’re better at communicating via actions than words. Let’s be honest, that’s half the flirting fun – giving physical signals of desire. And of course, when you engage in such physical activity with someone you don’t know that well, you risk that there may be differences in communication styles, and even expectations.

That said, we need to have some generally accepted parameters, so that what starts out as pressure (wrong – I believe – but often not illegal), does not become rape, which is both illegal and wrong. And because physical signals and cues are too often misconstrued, the law has determined that verbally communicating “no” always overrides other forms of communication.

Personally, given unacceptably high levels of sexual violence in our culture, I’m more a supporter of what feminist activist Jaclyn Friedman calls a “Yes Means Yes” culture, over a “No Means No” culture. Why? Because even our legal system is nowhere close to recognizing the problems inherent with “no means no.” Just a few weeks ago, a judge in Connecticut overturned the conviction of a man who had sexually assaulted a severely mentally disabled girl who could not speak. Why? Because the judge claims this girl could have kicked or bitten or done something else to indicate to him that she did not consent. Actually, the judge says she must PROVE she did those things.

Even though women are often taught that it is more dangerous to fight back. Even though being sexually assaulted can be incredibly frightening and often paralyzing. Even though this severely mentally disabled woman had approximately the mental capacities of a 12 year old. Let’s be real – not for a second do I believe that a man who is forcing himself on a severely disabled woman would have stopped suddenly if she had kicked him. Or presuming she did, been able to prove that she kicked him.

Which is why “yes means yes” is so much safer. I’m not in any way saying we should all have to sign notarized consent forms for each and every physical activity, but the point is that if you respect the person you’re with, you’re better off recognizing what pressure looks like, thinking first and foremost about whether you BOTH want what is happening, and what the best way is of ascertaining that.

A final note: This is, admittedly, a very heteronormative article and equally so response. Not because I do not believe such issues are a part of the homosexual community, but because being straight, I’m not in a position to comment on them from personal experience. But no one should leave this discussion believing that gay couples automatically do not face such issues. And going along with that, while I do believe these issues (as all are involving sexual violence), impact women as the victims and men as the aggressors more often than the flip, no one should leave this discussion believing that these scenarios cannot or do not play out in the reverse as well. Plenty of women are aggressive and pressuring about sex, and plenty of men will find themselves in Jane’s situation as well.

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  • Jeremy

    I’m a lurker here at fem2.0, but something about this post kind of rubbed me the wrong way. I’ll preface this with an acknowledgement that I am a heterosexual male, and that obviously brings quite a bit to the table in terms of baggage and privilege; but I do hope my arguments can stand on their own weight and I’m more than open to changing my mind.

    Patriarchy certainly can seem like an all-consuming force at times. Its impacts are everywhere–our politics, our language, and most intimately seemingly ever-present in sexual interaction. Many of us feminist men do our best to be keenly aware of the ways our actions are perceived; periodic failure is an inevitable result of the aforementioned privilege. But I find that the above story fails to establish a credible brightline that can actually be useful in terms of how to avoid failure. In short, there’s no real way for Tom to escape assured of not offending Jane. You say it’s better for Tom to be safe than sorry and only ask once. What’s to say EVER asking again is ok? It may be ok for Jane, but what if it’s not ok to ask next week for Cathy? Or next month for Suzie? What if it’s not okay for Tom to EVER ask Jennifer? What if it’s not ok for Tom to ask until they’re in a committed relationship? Or married, for that matter? You might think these timelines are unreasonable, but they may not be for these women. Sure, evaluating why someone would ever ask multiple times in a night in the sterilized light of a computer could bring easy judgement, but the heat of a sexual encounter isn’t quite so sterile.

    Of course, the heat of a sexual encounter is no justification for sexual misbehavior. But Jane seems to believe that Tom has the best of intentions…considers himself a feminist…is acting in good faith. If Tom is a self-avowed feminist and he’s asking Jane for her approval to have sex, he wants to hear her honest answer. Are Jane and Tom trapped, forever victims of a patriarchal system that’s clearly failing both of them? Or is this encounter missing one thing that can break down patriarchy…clear communication between two responsible, sober, feminist adults? WOMEN HAVE AGENCY. And if a woman can’t use that agency with a man she believes to be acting in good, egalitarian faith to explain she feels pressured and ask him not to ask again, I’m not certain when that agency could be used. Otherwise, they both are destined to be permanent victims.

    If all “cutesy” sexual conversation between two consenting, sober adults with the best of intentions immediately becomes “manipulative,” then there’s simply no victory over patriarchy. “Better safe than sorry” becomes nothing more than a trite, empty expression without honesty and communication to back it up. And that’s a sad day, indeed. Particularly because I rather like having sex with feminist women, but I’m not sure if I can ever ask again.

  • Abigail Collazo

    Jeremy:

    Thanks for your comment! I think you bring up some very valid points. It seems to be that the main question you are asking is “well how is a guy to KNOW?” I think that’s a fair question. Because women are more sensitive to looks, body language, signals, etc. than men are, we tend to be surprised and not just a little bit outraged when men don’t immediately understand what we are trying to convey. Men are not mind readers, and as you say, different women will have different responses to these scenarios.

    I think my counterpoint to your arguments though would be that you aren’t giving enough weight to the statement that “Women have agency.” This, to me, is the crux of the matter. What you’re saying is that men should not be automatically expected to just know what this particular woman is thinking at this particular time – she should be required to speak up and to communicate. It is her responsibility.

    I’m in complete agreement with you. But the reason I drew out this scenario the way I did is because in my mind, that is exactly what happened. Tom asked, Jane said no. Not just ‘no’, but ‘not tonight.’ As far as I’m concerned, what she was saying was no for that night. As you say, women have agency. And instead of trusting her, and giving weight to that agency, Tom assumes the patriarchal stance of “she doesn’t ACTUALLY know what she wants.” I don’t know any other way to interpret “are you sure?” than “are you certain that when you said no, you REALLY meant no?”

    I wrote this post exactly for, I think, your demographic. Guys who are really good people and certainly don’t try to go out of their way to exert their privilege over women, but who perhaps don’t always see how what they’re doing or saying affects us. Even in your comment, you expect a woman to exercise her agency a SECOND time and to tell a man that she’s feeling pressured and he shouldn’t ask again. She said ‘not tonight’. Why is it her responsibility to reinforce that as opposed to a man’s responsibility to hear it the first time? Why should she have to proclaim her agency and her responsibility more than once before he is expected to do the same?

    I have no issue with the idea that women should have equal responsibility in these situations to clearly express themselves. But questions like ‘are you sure’ are insulting and pressuring and demeaning to the agency that you want women to live up to. If we are agents, then we have the right to be treated as such. And that means trusting us. Trusting us that we meant ‘not tonight’ when we said ‘not tonight.’ And as well trusting us that if we change our minds, we will say so. That, also, is our responsibility.

    I just don’t think you can have it both ways. Either we’re responsible for our involvement and therefore the agency we exercise is to be respected, or we’re not responsible and it’s the man’s duty to guess and guess right.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joey-Lee/33500221 Joey Lee

      I appreciate you pointing out that it is very difficult for women to say no, particularly as we’re raised to think of others first. When it’s so difficult to even say it once, at the risk of being labeled a tease, multiple times is increasingly stressful, as it becomes apparent that their desire is stronger and the possibility of assault is more likely. In my experience, it can take 10-15 no’s.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joey-Lee/33500221 Joey Lee

      It would be helpful if resources on sexual communication could be integrated into sexual education programs. There’s a lack of acknowledgement of this phenomenon, so I thought there was something wrong with me for having trouble expressing “no” multiple times.

  • Jeremy

    Thanks, Abigail–this is a well thought out response.

    I suppose where we break down is in two places. First, I feel like a sterile analysis of this just doesn’t do reality justice. Sex is powerful. Desire is powerful. I’ll leave the details to the imagination, but these aren’t the moments in which I’d usually claim to be at my most intellectually fortuitous. Cutesy questions in moments such as these really just feel like they should be taken as such: cutesy questions from someone with good intentions, not manipulative attempts to question Jane’s ability to make a decision. It’s true that my entire thesis is based on the idea that Tom is acting in good faith. If this is the case, it’s just so hard for me to understand in this context why we’d read so deeply into the intentions of a question that seems to be borne out of the heat of the moment between two people who are clearly very interested in each other.

    And in light of that, the designation you apply to Tom just feels particularly strong. Is the second question unnecessary? Sure. Is the third question annoying? Probably. “This is about the time when I want to punch Tom in the face.” Oh dear. “It’s not rape as we commonly think of it.” Yikes. These are powerful words.

    And we’re still left with my original questions: when is it ok to ever ask again? when is it ok to ask in the first place? I know when I CAN’T ask, but when CAN I? If the mere act of asking can have this powerful of a response, we’re left to carefully parse our words with the people we are most intimate with. Not fun.

    I guess my hope would be that, were I in this situation, my cutesy second question would be taken as such, not as manipulative. Not as “You don’t know what you want.” So when I talk about agency, I’m hoping that together, as partners, we could discuss what we want and when we want it without fear that bringing up the very topic would be considered pressuring her.

    • jess

      There seems to be a disconnect here where men jump from, “If she says no one night, stop asking.” to mean you can never ask, not the next day, not the next year, not ever. It’s safe to assume that sex is off the table for the rest of that night unless she comes forward to change her mind later. Bringing it up repeatedly in one night is where it becomes pressuring. You might also have to discuss whether or not she’s comfortable being asked for sex in general. I know some women are, some aren’t. It’s important to leave this up to the individual and not assume because we’re all very different. Some women want sex multiple times a day, some can do without it entirely. So it’s kind of important to figure that out before you both get too attached and wind up hurting or disappointing each other.

      I never had a problem with being asked for sex until a circumstance like the one in this post started happening to me in my own relationship. I was with a man who would hound me for sex, asking me multiple times every single day. When I would say no he would expect me to justify my answer instead of just taking me at my refusal. He would then try to make me feel like I was a cruel person and my refusal was a direct attack on him rather than accepting that I was going through a period of having a low libido due to a very stressful and traumatic situation. I wound up feeling so bad for him that I gave in and slept with him at my own expense. Even with my explaining why repeatedly asking me for sex wasn’t ok, it took him months to get that through his head and change his ways, and by that time, I couldn’t feel sexually attracted to him at all, and his asking me would trigger me into a crying fit.

      Coercion is a form of abuse and should be taken very seriously. People need to learn to take no for an answer and to listen when their partners express their concern for certain sexual behaviors. The important thing here is to accept a no, and if you need clarification (such as what she’s saying no to, or if she means no for just tonight, or if she doesn’t want you to ask again and wait for her to initiate) it’s better to ask for that than to continue to pressure her, assuming she changed her mind.

  • Lew

    Ok, so I have gone back and forth about whether I should comment on this article and before I do, I would like to preface my comment with a brief statement. Abigail, I consider you a very thoughtful and perceptive writer with a deep insight into the emotional aspect of women’s issues that I don’t get to hear very often. I also consider you a very good friend. That being said, I have a few qualms about this posting.

    1.) I don’t know if I am comfortable or if it is even possible to be a feminist man. I simply do not believe that as a heterosexual man I am able to know or understand the complexities of issues and grievances that a woman goes through on an everyday basis. I can never replicate the way a woman feels about certain situations. That being said, I also do not want to say that men cannot attempt to understand or acknowledge these differences, but I don’t believe it is possible to be fully in accordance with these principals for the simple reason that men and women are not one in the same.

    2.) This fictional situation between Jane and Tom seems to be striking and interesting tone. If Jane does not feel that he is acting in a disrespectful manner and that he has displayed a behavior in previous encounters described as “perfectly gracious”, the leap to pressuring her to do anything feels like a stretch. I understand that she may be uncomfortable by him asking, but it seems that he was asking to see how far will this go. She is at my place after a good date. She obviously likes me, and is attracted to me, I feel the same about her. I am asking her about the most intimate of things while in the act of doing other very intimate things. He didn’t ask her about the condom on the way home from the date. This is a subtle context issue, but an issue nonetheless. I don’t think that guys get a fair shake when it comes to this, because in this situation, I read that Tom wants to continue to pursue pleasure with the woman he covets and whom also covets him as well and protecting each other while doing so.

    3.) This article leaves out the fact that women, don’t just have agency but also simple power. This entire situation could have been avoided if Jane just simply said, “I’ve had a wonderful time with you, but tonight I am not going to come up to your apartment/condo/house.” I believe that at a certain point in life, the sheer act of coming up to Tom’s apartment carries weight and adds a different gravity to the situation. I am DEFINITELY not saying that by Jane coming up to Tom’s apartment she MUST do anything, but expectations have definitely changed from a good night kiss or good night make out session. My next statement is a generalization, and I could be off the mark on this, but I believe that generally women have a better idea of what is “going on” in the relationship… especially early on. Men generally do not know or really think that hard about what is going to happen on the date. Men try to show the woman that they are trying to court a good and enjoyable time, and if they think they are reading the situation correctly they will ask for more. I believe that women think things through to their conclusion a bit more than men do. If Jane didn’t expect this question while she was “fooling around” with Tom (in Tom’s place after a date) Jane must be 14 or incredibly naive. On his asking again a second or a third time, that could be annoying, but what has ever been accomplished without be persistent? There are probably plenty of women that want to see Tom ask (beg) before anything further would happen because they want this act (and to a greater extent themselves) to be wanted and yearned in longing for.

    In saying all of this, I guess I am a little hazy on the fact that Jane wanted to punch Tom for asking and even made the leap to pressure and then again to rape. This was a guy who was described as kind and gracious, for all purposes a gentleman. I know that this is a fictional situation and the feelings that Jane felt could very well be valid, but I have a hesitancy to label this man (Tom) as even pressuring due to the fact he asked in the heat of the moment(s). If he just took one out that would have been presumptuous and changes my view on the situation. Once again, I recognize that I am a heterosexual man and probably see these things differently. I just wanted to open this up for further dialogue.

    • http://www.facebook.com/jasmine.garner.9 Jasmine Garner

      Lew, I think you are missing the point of the article. The point is, just because a woman wants to fool around doesn’t mean she wants to have sex. There are times when we want to hang out with you in close quarters and just chill and enjoy your company. We also want you to be able to do the same.

      Tom definitely didn’t rape Jane. But he just made her feel really uncomfortable without realizing it. If we say no then leave it be. Don’t ask again. By being persistent then you are pressuring her.

      That being said, I do think that as women we need to realize that saying no and being firm will not turn off the right guy. If he doesn’t want to date you anymore because you won’t cave to his pressure then great. He is a jerk and she doesn’t want him anyway.

      • Mike Hylton

        Yeah. the problem is, she didnt just say no, then chill out with him Jane continued making out, heavy petting, groping etc. If you do not want to have sex, you need to say, No intercourse, or stop with the making out. If it is explained you dont want to have sex, then say “we better stop” it goes a lot further then saying”I dont want to a have sex” but keep feeling my up while i stick my tongue in your ear.

        Anyone normal would start to think the lady could be unsure or changing her mind if the making out kept going. I would to. or I would assume the women is playing some mind game.

        • Just a Girl

          I really think that these posts are doing a great job at illustrating the
          point of the article. As a woman I can
          completely relate to this situation. There is a guy I like and I want to express
          that and move up a level physically but I may not be ready to have sex. Jane tries to tell him that but Tom just keeps
          mentally jumping to sex. The guys who
          have posted think that behavior is completely natural and it definitely seems
          to be common but it doesn’t mean that the women on the receiving end feel comfortable
          with it. I think the guys who have
          posted here are being a little unfair.
          You act like Jane is leading Tom on and to you and to Tom it may seem
          that way but that is clearly not Jane’s intention.

          This article is just trying to show how it feels on the receiving
          end of this constant persuasion. It can
          be exhausting and stressful but it can also be a little sad. When I am in a situation like that I start to
          feel like the guy is only there for the end result of sex. It is a little sad to feel like an entire
          evening or couple of evenings of time spend with me is for one simple
          purpose. In situation like that at least
          me for it feels as though anything else I have to offer is irrelevant. That may be hard for a guy to understand but
          that doesn’t invalidate the feeling.

          • http://writtennerd.wordpress.com/ Liz Alexander

            Ok, I’m a married lady, but I don’t understand how the guys here are being unfair. I’m actually agreeing with them.

            That being said, there’s a difference between just doing regular stuff…watching a movie, eating dinner, etc….and the guy just keeps bringing up sex randomly. That’s an entirely different thing.

            But heck, if you’re pretty much doing everything possible to heat each other up EXCEPT pulling out naughty bits, then yeah…I don’t understand that. I don’t understand doing that with someone you don’t trust 110% anyways. Pecks on the cheek? Sure. Sweet kisses in the moonlight? Hugs? Laying your head on his shoulder? Sure.

            Making out like it’s foreplay, but then not following through in any way, shape, or manner? Yeah, I don’t get that. Unless it’s something you and your partner decided to do together, and you’re both obviously in it for the long haul.

            I fully understand being nervous about sex. (Hoo, boy, if only you folks knew..) But if you’re that nervous about it, then don’t start what is essentially foreplay. It’s very confusing to the guy, and very stressful for you. (BTW, sex doesn’t have to involve penetration. Just thought I’d throw that out there. ;) )

          • http://vulvs.tumblr.com/ oofstar

            making out isn’t foreplay. it’s fun on it’s own. there are lots of reasons people might want to fool around and not have full on sex.

            have you ever had a sexual encounter without having an orgasm? because it is still fun. making out is fun in it’s own right. being aroused is fun. why should a person have to commit to ‘going all the way’ just cause they want to have the fun of making out?

          • http://writtennerd.wordpress.com/ Liz Alexander

            Having sex without “getting there” is actually a huge complaint among most women, last I heard. Leastwise, it’s one of the most frustrating things I’ve ever experienced. (Fortunately doesn’t happen too often, because my hubby is AWESOME. ;) )

            That being said, I generally don’t understand how a woman trusts a man enough to stick his tongue down her throat, but then gets freaked out if he pulls out his stuff ‘n’ things.

            I also don’t understand the prevailant attitude that penetration sex is the ONLY kind of sex to be had.

            The world of promiscuous singles is a weird, weird place I’ve never wanted anything to do with.

          • http://vulvs.tumblr.com/ oofstar

            i don’t know anything about the world of promiscuous singles. i was married for 10 years. but i do know something about being pressured to have more sex than i want to at a given moment, and that was fully in the confines of my marriage. and that was with a man who made me orgasm from intercourse every time.

            i don’t need or want to always orgasm from sexual contact. that isn’t weird. that isn’t uncommon. i don’t want for every passionate kiss to imply that i want to orgasm. that isn’t weird or uncommon either. i want to be able to touch my partner and have them touch me and to not know what might happen next. or to just know that what happens next won’t include certain things i might not feel like doing for whatever reason at whatever time.

            and that isn’t just about intercourse. sometimes i don’t want oral sex. sometimes i just want to kiss and fondle for 30 minutes before falling asleep. i -honestly- can’t comprehend the idea that if you do anything sexual, it means you need to keep going until everybody orgasms. that seems like a lot of commitment and a lot of work, especially if you’re married and sleeping in the same bed every night.

            and that all also has nothing to do with men or women. men sometimes just want to make out too. and women coerce men into having sex much more frequently than anyone talks about.

          • http://writtennerd.wordpress.com/ Liz Alexander

            I feel like I’ve done a super-bad job of explaining myself, but let me try to untangle this mess.

            This isn’t about orgasming. It’s about, like Steve said, communicating clearly and being respectful of each other.

            Though I’ve rarely ever heard of a woman who didn’t want to orgasm, I can respect that. However, it isn’t about what I think…it’s about what *both* of the people in the relationship think.

            Some guys can’t “turn off” as easy as women. What’s more, I wonder if it’s super-frustrating for a guy, no matter how nice or compliant, to have the permission to see a girl with her top off and have things get real hot ‘n’ heavy….but then not be able to “finish”, whether it’s through actual intercourse, oral sex, hand job, or handling it himself.

            So, in short, I think the girl needs to be just as considerate with her man as she expects him to be with her.

            Talk it out. Find out what’s best for EVERYONE involved…not JUST one person or the other. :)

          • jess

            This is seriously just making excuses for the rapist mentality and it’s really depressing seeing it coming from a woman.

            Sex and orgasm is not something that you’re entitled to receive from another person. If you need to get off that bad, excuse yourself and finish in the bathroom. Being considerate does not equal allowing someone to push you past the boundaries you’ve set so that they can get off.

            Frustrating or not, one’s desire for sex never trumps their partner’s desire not to have sex. I can’t have empathy for someone who is so selfish that they think that their sexual urges should come before their partner’s need to stop.

          • jess

            Just because you don’t understand it does not make it wrong. Why put your two cents into a situation which doesn’t involve you? As a happily married person who didn’t participate in such situations, you don’t have a place to speak for the intentions of others who are in that position. If find the speculation in this comments section to be pretty obnoxious to be honest. Most of this comments section is just another example of men talking over women in regards to what they want and need, and other women going to bat for men who already dominate the discussion in order to get patted on the back for being nice, agreeable women. It’s wonderful that some women have different needs, but to speak over the many women who have a legitimate problem with being pressured into sex because you personally don’t feel that way with your husband does nothing to further the discussion that many other men and women need to be having.

            When it comes to new relationships, just jumping into sex as the first experience I have with the other person beyond dinner and a movie is almost never satisfying and results in a one-sided, jack rabbit thrust type of situation. It’s important to learn about your partner’s body and to understand each other’s needs prior to committing to a potentially life changing experience. Several sessions of making out, groping, dry humping, etc, lead to much more intense sexual experiences down the line due to the building of tension and anticipation. It’s also an important way to gauge whether sex with this person would even be worth it depending on how the guy attends to my needs and makes me feel. Just because I have a good conversation with a man doesn’t mean he’s gonna be great in bed. So a little experimentation prior helps me determine how far I want to go.

            If a woman is making out with him but says no to sex, it is his responsibility to then put an end to the making out if he can’t handle being aroused in her presence without having sex. It is also up to men to remind themselves that they are never owed sex and that making out, groping, dry humping, etc, does not mean that sex is going to happen. Excuse me while I don’t weep for a man’s disappointment when he expects to get laid but doesn’t. I expect certain results that never come all the time. That’s part of life and being an adult. I don’t go around just taking things from people when that happens.

          • http://www.facebook.com/steven.p.sperling Steven Posts Twice Sperling

            You’re absolutely right Jess! How dare another person have the temerity to disagree with you or anyone else, and vocalize it! And the fact that she’s married? Well, surely that just means she’s a submissive, meek woman who just wants to be dominated! How DARE she raise her voice in the presence of strong willed women who refuse to be meek and submissive like her! The temerity of that wench! It’s completely foreign to you that she might be in a relationship with a man where they both trust each other, communicate about their needs and share the difficulties of surviving and thriving in this modern world.

            This selfishness and dishonesty is rampant through your words: you don’t see a man as a person, but as a “thing” to be used for your own emotional and sexual fulfillment. Rather than say: “Hey, let’s not have sex, let’s save it, but let’s mess around a bit an experiment with each other”, you say: “no SEX!” then go and “test” your sex toy for compatibility. You’re not looking for a relationship, you’re window shopping for dildos, they just happen to have men as accessories.

          • Linda

            I agree Liz. I’m saying “come on ladies”. I’m 54 & a heterosexual female. Be aware & respectful of the fact that men & women turn on & off in different ways. Jane is being unfair to Tom & “unclear” in her communications. How does it go again? Communication is only 7% words, 38% in how you say something, and… wait for it… 55% body language.

          • http://vulvs.tumblr.com/ oofstar

            this is not confusing! maybe it’s the 20 year age difference? but if i say, no i don’t want to have sex, i do want to make out and stuff for a while, that isn’t confusing. if you -cannot- do any sexual stuff without the promise or expectation of an orgasm at the end, then it is your responsibility to be upfront about that and not do sexual stuff with someone who tells you upfront that they don’t want to go all the way to orgasm with you.

            how is that confusing?

            and as for body language, while we may communicate with our bodies, we misunderstand eachothers bodies regularly enough that you should really just go by what people say. if that woman ends up wanting to go further, she’ll let you know. you don’t have to keep asking her if she’s changed her mind.

          • http://www.facebook.com/steven.p.sperling Steven Posts Twice Sperling

            There’s nothing wrong with just wanting to make out and cuddle for a little bit. But you should say that. If Jane had stopped Tom and said: “Look, Tom, I like you, a whole lot. But I don’t want to go that far, I want it to be special” then there’s less of a problem, and if Tom respects her, then he will understand.

            Maybe I just expect too much communication and openness when it comes to sex?

          • http://vulvs.tumblr.com/ oofstar

            that’s how i interpreted their interaction. i guess the confusion could come with the “sleep with you” part, but i thought people say that to mean ‘intercourse’ usually. i do actually find that confusing a lot, because i’ve only made out with people i’ve also slept with (i’m a weird kind of prude).

            so yes, i agree. she should say i don’t want to have intercourse with you but i’d like to fool around. agreed.

          • http://www.facebook.com/steven.p.sperling Steven Posts Twice Sperling

            Look it that, we’re communicating, and we end up coming out of this with both parties feeling mutually satisfied. It’s amazing how that works! Me and the lady in my life, we’ve had a lot of problems, and most of them stem from a lack of communication, on both our side. Strangely enough, when we do communicate and talk about things, we usually find a way to reconcile them. It’s amazing!

          • jess

            Why must she placate him with a flowery speech? A no should be sufficient.

            And seriously, don’t answer that, because every time I have tried to appease a man who has put unreasonable pressure on me it has had the same effect that a standard no has. A person who doesn’t want to accept no as an answer is not going to accept, “I really like you but…” and will say, “Well if you really liked me you would sleep with me.”

          • http://www.facebook.com/steven.p.sperling Steven Posts Twice Sperling

            Why can’t she talk to him about what she wants? Why can’t she define her boundaries and her desires? Why is asking for honesty and openness a bad thing?

            Second, If you are frequently finding yourself in positions where men you are intimate with are putting unreasonable pressure on you? Perhaps you are selecting the wrong men to be intimate with. If a man respects you as a person, then he will respect your desires and needs, so long as you are honest about them. Why would you repeatedly put yourself in that situation?

            Oh, wait. Comes back to that whole: “open and honest discourse is a necessisity for healthy relationships” thing that you guys seem to be hung up on.

          • Dave

            How about a no followed by a break off of all physical contact? It’s a lot less confusing than what happens in the article. I will not hold it against you if you don’t want to have sex. I will hold it against you if you turn on my oven an not cook anything.

          • http://www.facebook.com/jefferey.hart Jefferey Hart

            You sit here and bash us for our “delicate egos” and expect us to be polite with you. I like to be polite and respectful of someone’s feelings. Are you supposing that it is wrong for a women to soften a rejection for a man, but that a man must soften his advances to avoid any negative feelings on her part?

            Also, not everything I do to satisfy my partner is pleasurable to me. I try not to every be upset if someone doesn’t want to satisfy me in some way (I’m not talking about penetration necessarily) but jeez, I am certainly grateful when they do. I feel awkward going into the bathroom to finish myself and then, what, coming out and watching a movie? Or continuing a conversation. . . .”excuse me, i’ve just got to rub one out.” I’d have to be really comfortable with a partner, like I am with my partner now, to ‘finish myself’ and not feel judged or creepy.

            Either party has the right to break off interaction at any point. No one should be made to feel bad about this. However, it is entirely natural for a man to feel unsatisfied. I’m sorry, but this is just how it is. He does not have to pressure his partner, but as it has been said before, if he expresses this dissatisfaction in any way, on purpose or in his demeanor, someone like Jess is going to label us a jerk anyway. This is entirely unfair. And yes, blue-balls are a very real thing, and they do hurt physically. Am I a jerk because I want to be in a relationship that leaves me sexually fulfilled?

            Finally, perhaps this is foreign to some people, but there are a LOT of women who enjoy the push-pull of saying no and then saying yes. It took me quite by surprise, being always told by my mother to not be aggressive and to respect what women tell you, that I was told by a girl that she though ‘giving up so easily was super-lame’ in not so many words. That telling me no, and making me excited, and getting me to ask again was a way that she felt powerful and in control and attractive.

            If you have dated and encountered the wide variety of reactions by different women to these types of encounters, you might be left wondering what is appropriate, what will cause hurt feelings, what will leave you feeling judged, and (I SAY WITHOUT APOLOGY) you might wonder to yourself what behavior on your part will allow you to have some kind of satisfaction amid this confusing double-standard.

          • EyeLean5280

            Agreed.

          • EyeLean5280

            I agree wholeheartedly.

            I also find it interesting that you and I are both married and both insisting that Jane grow up and start taking the male point of view into account when choosing her actions.

          • http://www.facebook.com/steven.p.sperling Steven Posts Twice Sperling

            “The road to hell is paved with good intentions”. Jane may not be intending to lead Tom on, just as Tom is probably not INTENDING to pressure her into doing something she doesn’t want. It’s completely possible to hurt someone, when you have their best intentions at heart.

            My position is: “talk, don’t make out” in this scenario. Let Tom know you, Jane, arn’t ready to take that next step. Let him know what your intentions are in a clear and honest fashion.

          • LampLighter

            Steven, the point you’re missing entirely is that not all men are you. Sure, if a woman said to you “I only want to go this far, and no further,” you’d respect it, right?

            But if a woman says that to this guy over here, he might say “What, are you a prude?” Or he might call her a bitch, because he paid for dinner and now she owes him. Or he might say “Are you suuuuuure?” for the fiftieth time. Or he might decide he’s going to get some ass whether she wants to or not (she did come into his house, after all, so she was asking for it, right?).

            How is a woman to know which response she’s going to get? She doesn’t. Look in the mirror: your response isn’t stamped on your forehead. Neither is any other man’s.

            Look, I’m not saying talking about it is wrong. Talking about it is absolutely the right answer, especially in an ideal world where people aren’t dicks and everyone’s honest. But this isn’t an ideal world – so in the meantime, the writer is asking guys to be aware of the unfair pressure they are putting on women without meaning to, and maybe try to knock it off.

            Your response that “It’s Jane’s fault for leading Tom on and not telling him what she wants” is not helpful. It’s not always that simple.

          • http://www.facebook.com/steven.p.sperling Steven Posts Twice Sperling

            How is a woman to know what response she’s going to get? I don’t know, by communicating? It’s not an ideal world, but forgoing the responsibility of making it a more ideal world doesn’t help at all. Stop trying to shift all the responsibility onto men, while demanding we respect your agency.

            If Jane did not intend to have sexual relations with Tom? She made a very irresponsible decision in accompanying him to his house. When he “put the moves on her”, she said no(Go Jane!), and then re-initiated sexual contact. Again, an irresponsible move on her part. To expect Tom to be the only responsible adult in this situation is frankly, insulting. To expect Tom to know what she desires, what makes her uncomfortable, without her input? That’s just foolish.

            Working through communication issues in a relationship is trying, it’s difficult and it’s exhausting. It’s also the only way to actually resolve those issues and reach a mutually enjoyable state with both parties. Putting it off because it’s “not ideal” is a lazy cop-out.

            This lack of communication frustrates men, leads them to have resentment towards women(“That cunt was just leading me on, using me!”), and the ramifications of that are to produce the sort of pushy, “me-first”, inconsiderate Jerks that you guys bemoan. They learn that a woman’s words are not to be trusted, that her “no” is just a formality and that she “doesn’t know what she wants”, so she needs a man to tell her.

            And don’t think that this is from someone who has never pressured a woman into sex, or that I never will again*. A woman who is not up front about her needs, wants and desires, and how I can accommodate them, is a woman who ultimately, I cannot respect as a person, and I will not give much consideration to. My current sexual partner is very honest about matters of sex(if not other things…), and I can rest assured that when we are together, she will let me know what I can and cannot do to her. That’s why I’m still seeing her, despite numerous setbacks in our long “dating” process.

            On the other hand? A girl like Jane? I’d probably maintain the relationship for as long as it was convenient for sex, and then leave her when it ceased being so. It’s not worth the trouble to be in a relationship with someone who cannot communicate her desires or needs, and I’ve done enough guessing(and guessing wrong!) in my life already.

            *Well, if my current relationship pans out, I won’t be having sex with anyone but her for the duration of my life, so…

  • Abigail Collazo

    Lew, thanks for reading. I have to say that I agreed with you entirely up until the end.

    “but what has ever been accomplished without be persistent? There are probably plenty of women that want to see Tom ask (beg) before anything further would happen because they want this act (and to a greater extent themselves) to be wanted and yearned in longing for.”

    I think this is very, very dangerous thinking. “What has been accomplished without a little persistence? ” REALLY? If Tom wants to have sex with Jane and she needs to be coerced, coaxed, or talked into it, especially in the heat of the moment, then he really needs to think twice about whether this act truly is consensual. I have to say I also strongly disagree with your statement that there are plenty of women out there who make men ask over and over and over again if they REALLY want it – who, in essence, make men beg for it. I’m not denying that women ever play hard to get, or are ever coy about such things, but in this particular scenario as in many others, I think it’s incredibly naive and very insensitive for a man to hear “no” and say to himself, “she’s probably just being cute, and what she really wants is for me to beg her”. That’s a terribly slippery slope and I’m very uncomfortable with a man choosing that interpretation over one that assumes a woman meant what she said.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=10400006 Abigail Collazo

      Lou – I think you make some valuable points here, particularly in saying that If Tom is worth her time, he’s worth a few more words of explanation. That makes sense, and I do think we’re mostly on the same page about the need for increased communication to take into account the difficulties in such situations.

  • Abigail Collazo

    Additionally, I have to say that I think your point about what she should have expected going up there is an interesting one. There is no doubt that there are certain messages sent when a woman consents to going home with a man. However, in my very humble opinion, that message is “she may be open to having sex with you.” That means, as far as I’m concerned, that it’s perfectly appropriate for him to ask – she came home with him, after all. However, I don’t know where we got to a place in our society that consenting to go back to someone’s apartment means you are consenting to having sex with him.

    I don’t think, as I said, that Tom is a bad person, or that in his mind, he was pressuring her. I don’t even think he really meant to do it. I’m just saying that objectively speaking, I see no way to interpret a sentence like “Are you suuuure?” except as pressure, if you really consider what it implies. Once she says ‘not tonight’, as far as I’m concerned, it’s off the table.

    • http://writtennerd.wordpress.com/ Liz Alexander

      I don’t agree. I don’t see it as the guy “pressuring” her so much as him trying to get some clarity on the situation.

      I think the author of the post is unfairly putting far too much blame on the guy in this situation, and not enough on the woman who keeps making out with him.

      You just can’t have your cake and eat it, too; human beings aren’t that simple. Make a choice, people, and stick with it!

  • fem2pt0_reader

    Does the ‘no’ come with a timer? Is it in force during that meeting, only to get reset when Jane leaves the apt later that night? If Tom meets Jane on three consecutive evenings, is it coercive if he asks her every evening? The same women who consider Tom’s behaviour coercive, also expect the man to take charge and lead. No wonder, many men find it easier to buy sex from the professionals. Just get a red ‘No F**king’ LED implanted on the forehead.

  • AlekNovy

    There’s a very simple way to overcome this issue.

    Contrary to popular belief – men also live for women’s love, approval, attention and appreciation. As long as there are women who award men that push past No’s with love, appreciation and approval, they will be training men that it’s ok to do so.

    I have never ever ever ever ever in my entire life gone past a “no”. The men who I know base their entire “approach” on pushing past No’s however enjoy far more privilege, attention and love from women.

    I’m a bit extreme though. I take it even further than not pushing past no. I don’t even continue communication without an “enthusiastic yes”. If I approach a woman and and she isn’t enthusiastically jumping up and down, enthusiastically conversing with me… I eject from the conversation. I refuse to converse with women who respond to my approach or communication in an aloof/cold way.

    Guess what though? They later ask how-come I left and seek me out or ask a mutual friend why I left. Female friends tell me that I’m being “unfair” by only interacting with enthusiastic women, and how its supposedly unfair to women who are shy and need time to warm up and say yes.

    I don’t accept that argument. I’m fine with missing out on a great shy woman, if it means that I’m not the pushy guy pressuring uninterested women.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joey-Lee/33500221 Joey Lee

      In sexual situations there is without a doubt a huge difference in terms of women seeking approval from men vs men seeking approval from women. On a first time, I can’t even think about my sexual needs. I only think about what the man wants and is thinking. Its horrible.

      • http://www.facebook.com/steven.p.sperling Steven Posts Twice Sperling

        Why is it horrible? I haven’t had an orgasm during sexual intercourse in… going on 4 or 5 years now. I still enjoy sex, I enjoy pleasing my partner, I just don’t “come” except in a particular subset of conditions. Part of this is my experience with women in the past, including allegations of fathering a child(after 4 years of a nightmarish back and forth battle, the DNA test finally confirmed that I was NOT the father. This is after I spend 2 years believing I *was* the father of a very precocious child), risk of STDs and outright emotional abuse. It can jade you, especially when you are seeking emotional security and stability, someone to confide in and share the most intimate parts of your life with.

        When my girlfriend(Lover? soulmate? not sure what we call this relationship, honestly) finally made me orgasm(three times, I think it’s been), the release was so powerful that I was unable to move or speak coherently for about fifteen minutes. This isn’t a case of “he rolled over and went to sleep right after”, but of me laying supine, unable to gather my thoughts, completely wracked with feelings of ecstasy It also leaves me feeling very vulnerable and open, and it’s not a feeling I can easily share with someone.

        The strange thing about this whole article(well, not really strange to me…) is the way that men’s emotional needs and desires are easily excluded from consideration. Jane is attracted to Tom, but she doesn’t think he’s worth being upfront and honest, and she’s not able to control her desires enough to not give him the wrong impression. She wants Tom to give her emotions consideration, but she doesn’t consider the fact that she is making out with him, arousing him, keying him to expect sex from a physiological and emotional stand?

        Howe is the fair, equal or right? Ladies, if you care about our emotions and want us to care about yours, please have the courage to say “no” in a clear and unambigious way. “Look, I like you. A lot. There’s nothing I want more than to fuck your brains out, but I don’t think it’s right, right now” isn’t a problem. But then going and “jumpstarting” us by making out and arousing us, it sends conflicting signals.

        • Brigid

          Making out with someone isn’t “keying them up to expect sex” unless they think that making out with someone entitles them to sex. Arousing someone does not mean you have to sleep with them. This is exactly why pressuring is such a problem, and frankly it happens to men, too. A woman should not have to explicitly say no in order to not have to sleep with someone. There’s a difference between “caring about a man’s emotions” and being scared to say no. I imagine you have never been in a situation where you did not want to have sex, but were making out with someone who then coerced you into having sex because if you had, you would understand how hard it is to say no. It isn’t about respecting your partner’s feelings, it’s about respecting your own feelings, and rape culture makes it very hard for women to respect their own feelings because it teaches women that their feelings are less valid than their partner’s. It’s called entitlement. Men’s desires and needs are not being excluded, in fact the article addresses how Tom’s desires and needs played out in the story. The problem is when one partner’s desires and needs are put before the other’s, usually the woman’s. If you are making out with a woman and expect her to have sex with you, it is not her responsibility to clearly state that she does not want to have sex. It is your responsibility to stop expecting that you are entitled to sex just because she made out with you, no matter how far that making out goes. Your arousal is no one’s responsibility but your own. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but the only reason you are getting “conflicting signals” is because of your own sense of entitlement. For future reference, though, next time you get “conflicting signals,” just don’t have sex because hey guess what! Losing a single night of sex is not anything close to as bad as making your partner do something she doesn’t want to do. I can almost guarantee you that if you ask any partner you have been sexual with whether she ever felt pressured into sex, she would say yes. If she does not, she is probably only sparing your feelings, or worse, she has been so damaged by rape culture that she sees coerced sex as consensual sex and, even when pressured, blames herself for any sexual acts that transpired.

          Also there is a very big difference between putting your sexual needs before your partners in the context of being a selfless lover and the context of respecting your own apprehension about having sex. Yes, it is a good thing and a pleasurable thing to love selflessly and focus on making your partner orgasm. It is not a good thing to have sex with someone, or engage in any sexual acts with someone, because they wanted to regardless about how you felt. That is what Joey Lee was referring to: putting her partner’s desire for sex before her own desire against sex.

          • http://www.facebook.com/steven.p.sperling Steven Posts Twice Sperling

            1) “I imagine you have never been in a situation where you did not want to have sex, but were making out with someone who then coerced you into having sex because if you had, you would understand how hard it is to say no.”. I have been in this situation, twice, with the woman I’m currently in a sorta relationship with, and previously with another woman. The first time we ever had sex, it started out as making out, some oral from me, I got some oral from her and then she pinned me down and sat on my dick. I protested weakly(even weaker when she began choking me), but fortunately the night’s partying made my unit inoperable. Another time, she forced me to fuck her because her best friend and boyfriend were fucking in the room next to us. I wanted to have sex with her, but I didn’t want to at either time, but the decision making was not left to me. And you’re right, it does make you feel terrible inside afterwards. I have also pressured her into sex at various times. It’s, like I said a two way street.

            2) Making out doesn’t entitle you to sex. Very true. However, you are missing the point of non-verbal communication: if you tell me “no”, but then go back to performing sexual acts with me, arousing me, that sends conflicting signals. On one hand you are clearly saying “no”, but on the other hand you have engaged in activities that, physiologically speaking, prepare the body for sex, showing arousal and approval of what my hands are doing. Non verbal communication is just as real as verbal communication.

            It’s evident to me from your response that you don’t really consider or respect a man’s emotional desires or needs, yet expect him to consider and respect your own. If you don’t want to have sex with a man, that’s fine, and he needs to respect your wishes. Equally, you need to NOT escalate the situation by going into a heavy make-out session that’s sending out the physiological cues for arousal. It’s possible, I’ve seen it done(by the same woman who has forced me into having sex), and it doesn’t make the man resent you. Again, it’s a two-way street: you want respect and consideration, then you have to offer respect and consideration.

            And no, the article doesn’t treat Tom as a person with feelings, desires or motives, and it doesn’t give good advice to women or men about how to handle this situation, because it’s advice is “better safe than sorry”, rather than: “open up the communication, don’t send conflicting signals through multiple channels of communication, let him know how this makes you feel and treat him like a person”. Instead, it’s just focusing on how Tom is being wrong for misreading conflicting channels of communication, without saying anything about the importance of communication in these situations.

            Also, for the record and to clarify things, when I’m referring to “making-out” in this context, it’s not just passionate kissing(which is one form of making out), but the sort of intimate situation where you and your partner are entwined with each other, groping and fondling each other, kissing each other, grinding your genitals against each other. So…Foreplay, which should be considered part of “sex”. If you don’t want to have sex with a guy, then don’t engage in sex acts with him and then act outraged when he’s expecting more.

            Now, I constantly bring up the importance of communication, and there’s a reason for that: the sexual activities I engage in are a bit off color for most people, and maintaining clear communication is a necessity, for the safety of both partners. I’ve had to go to the emergency room and get thirteen stitches as a result of one of these encounters that didn’t go according to plan. When I tie my partner up and have sex with her, it’s necessary for me to constantly be aware of her desires and stop if we cross a line she’s not willing to go over. Equally, that communication and trust is vital if I’m going to allow her to tie me to the bed and sodomize me with a strap on. It’s a two-way street, and as my partner and I both like trade off the roles of who is dominate in the bedroom, it has to be, otherwise our relationship won’t work.

            Also, keep in mind that a Man willing to have this conversation with you? He does have a genuine desire to be a good lover and partner, or he wouldn’t be here having this conversation. We might disagree with you, or we might want to explain how a man feels in that situation, but that’s out of a desire to understand the opposite sex better and reach equality. Misogynists are not going to have this conversation, because they already consider a woman to be the accessory to a vagina.

          • person

            It’s a good point that the body and the mind are working with different information. The sex drive is physical and primal, not contemplative and cerebral.

          • EyeLean5280

            I agree with what you say about kissing and arousing someone not being a guarantee of sex, but only up to a certain point. Certainly, not in a context such as Ms. Callazo has presented here.

            As a woman with plenty years’ experience dealing with men and sex (I’ll be fifty soon), I would never dream of going alone to a man’s apartment and making out with him unless I was pretty sure I’m ready to sleep with him. The tentative, exploratory kissing in which someone is merely testing the waters or just enjoying themselves needs to be done before it gets to this point.

        • Viola Grey

          Or you could just hear their no the first time they actually said it, and avoid having to force a woman to reinforce the “no” she already gave you. Which is what the article was actually saying. I think the “better safe then sorry” rule is a great one. if she says no once? Just leave it at that.

          • http://www.facebook.com/steven.p.sperling Steven Posts Twice Sperling

            Again: no problem with accepting “no”. My problem is when “no” is followed by sex acts that say “yes”, leading the man to question the original answer. If you tell a man “no”, then don’t jump right back into the foreplay, creating the physiological expectation of sex. Find a way to defuse the sexuality of the encounter, rather than injecting more sex into the interaction.

          • Viola Grey

            If I woman has said no, and the two of you continue to fool around that “No” still stands until she specified otherwise by her words or by her actions (ie actually grabbing your cock and putting it inside of her is a pretty good indication shes changed her mind) unless thats happens, you should assume the “no” for sex still stands. I don’t know why heterosexuals seem to think “just fooling around” necessarily implies theirs going to be sex. Sometimes people just fool around without having sex. Theres nothing wrong with that. Maybe Jane is having an exceptionally painful menstrual (and by the way, saying “I don’t mind if you’re on your period” is missing the point. its not about whether or not YOU mind) Not to mention if Tom, our well meaning friend, was caressing and macking on our friend Jane after she said no -even though she wasn’t interested in fooling around- because gee, shoving a guy you date outright off of you kind of implies that your a bitch? Even her having to say “Tom, we just talked about this” is kind unfair, because she DID just say it. Why do men need to hear it more then once to get the point across? They don’t. I think more highly of men then that, and I don’t accept points of view that cast them in the light of being “stupid, monolithic, unchanging animals driven by their baser instincts” and what you’re saying smacks of that. I have very little sympathy for the position your arguing from. Never assume anything. If you’re fooling around after she said she wasn’t interested in having sex, let her be the one to change her mind and if she does, let HER be the one to vocalize that, don’t pressure her or continue to ask like an annoying little kid. Get better.

          • http://www.facebook.com/clint.hobson Clint Hobson

            Viola is spot on. I understand where Steven is coming from and why it makes sense, but the reality is more subtle than that, and offers more possibilities when you understand it.

            Steve, with your path, she stops anything and everything, and no one does anything else for the night and just goes to sleep.

            With Viola’s path, we still get to go ahead and do what feels good, and then… suddenly she’s so turned on she thinks “ah fuck it” and pulls you out of your pants and goes down on you, starting everything up.

            You get to be in that fun situation where neither of you are sure what’s going to happen next but you’re enjoying the contact anyway. And she may even just be overwhelmed by feelings and decide to go through with it. But she’ll make that obvious…

          • http://www.facebook.com/steven.p.sperling Steven Posts Twice Sperling

            Clint, I’m sorry, but your reply is exactly what the Article was telling us *not* to do. Continuing a make-out session with the intent that “maybe if I make her horny enough, she’ll fuck me!” is the sort of pressure the article is condemning.

            The problem here is that the man is being given all the responsibility in this encounter, while the female is absolved of responsibility. That ain’t healthy, and it doesn’t help any parties out. Jane should tell Tom, in clear terms, what she expects, how far she is willing to go, and what is off limits. And tom should respect that, and tell Jane how he feels about it.

          • http://www.facebook.com/jeremy.kohler.5 Jeremy Kohler

            “The problem here is that the man is being given all the responsibility in this encounter, while the female is absolved of responsibility.”
            Isn’t that the OPPOSITE of Feminism? I agree. In nearly every encounter where a girl has told me no, it is usually followed by an explaination of why. If not, then I assume that sex is off the table. If she continues to make out, then clearly making out isn’t. If we keep making out and she decides wants to have sex, well, that’s her perogative as an adult. Don’t expect me to stop being clever with my fingers and mouth just because she “might” change her mind and my ability to arouse her did that. Just because we’re not having sex doesn’t mean I shouldn’t make making out as pleasurable for her as possible. And sure, I can ask her (and one should,) if she changes her mind if she’s sure. But hey, apparently asking a woman twice about sex is the same as pressuring her, so what do I know? ;)

          • Lunar Archivist

            So here’s a simple question, then: why continue to make out after saying “no” and risk reinforcing any misunderstandings? Men and women find different things satisfying. Some consider foreplay as stimulating as the actual act of sex itself. Based on the article, Jane is evidently getting something out of this make out session and is clearly in the “foreplay is enough” camp. Tom, on the other hand, is mostly in the “only sex is completely satisfying” camp.

            Seriously, I don’t like the way the article frames the issue AT ALL because all it does it prop Jane up and tear Tom – and men in general – down by implying they’re occasional “rapists who ask for permission”. The entire story makes Jane look, to be perfectly charitable, somewhat inconsiderate.They’ve both initiated a sequence of events where the only acceptable outcome and courses of action that can be taken are the one that she wants and that lead to her own gratification and where the seeming contradiction between what she’s saying and what she’s doing can only be determined by mind reading.

            If Tom asks if she wants to have sex and she says “no”, that’s completely acceptable. No one on either side of the issue is saying otherwise. But the “no” door needs to swing both ways. Tom should have every right to end the make out session then and there, brush himself off, kiss her on the cheek, sincerely thank her for a wonderful evening with a smile, and be on his merry way. But the article clearly states that that course of action is unacceptable because it’s guilt-inducing and makes him look like he only ever wanted one thing in the first place. So…Tom’s only acceptable option, according to the author and several female posters here, is to continue to engage in an act that will ultimately leave him frustrated and unsatisfied. And if he doesn’t consent to that, he’s a typical male douche. How exactly is THAT fair?

            You know what the ultimate “better safe than sorry” action would be? Not putting yourself in a position where such misunderstandings could possibly arise in the first place.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=10400006 Abigail Collazo

            Lunar – I think you make a very good point about Tom’s right to end the evening graciously since it turns out, that wasn’t what he was looking for after all, and they’re on different pages. I will just say that i find the scenario so utterly unlikely that I hardly considered it a possibility. Men in my experience are simply not that gracious, nor that polite, nor that brave, frankly. Just as I believe a woman has a right to say no, I agree with you that a man has a right to not have to sit there through the rest of the evening if he doesn’t want to. Most men, however, I think, try not to come off as total jerks and aren’t confident enough in themselves to be as gracious and mature as you would like. I also think most women – because of the unique pressure forced on women in exactly situations like this – ARE worried the man will be a jerk and will just kick them out, and certainly not in as nice a manner as you state. I find men’s egos to be exceptionally fragile about such things, no matter how much you try to convince them that the “no” is about you and not them. So I agree with you wholeheartedly that doing that (nicely and graciously) is fully within a man’s rights, I’ve just never met one who was that mature, personally.

          • Lunar Archivist

            I wasn’t expecting a reply, but appreciate you for making one anyway. :)

            I’m really not interested in debating the issue ad nauseum, but this article seems to argue in favor of a double standard that just baffles me. If Jane agrees to have sex despite not really being crazy about the idea, then she was guilt-tripped and pressured into it and Tom’s the bad guy. But unless Tom agrees to continue a make out session that doesn’t end in sex even though he’s not crazy about the idea, he’s still going to be the bad guy because it would be immature and ungracious for him to do otherwise.

            I’m sorry, but there’s something seriously wrong with a scenario where the only way to avoid being labelled the “bad person” by your partner is to completely and utterly submit to his or her demands. And, in this case, this applies equally to both Tom AND Jane.While I certainly wouldn’t be as gracious as my theoretical Tom if I were in his position, I think I could manage to end the evening without resorting to name-calling, hurling accusations, or throwing a temper tantrum. But I’d definitely be visibly annoyed and exasperated. Just as visibly annoyed and exasperated as Jane would be after having to fend off unwanted sexual advances.

            The whole problem here boils down to a failure to communicate. Make your intentions clear and don’t do anything that might make you look like you’re contradicting yourself or making yourself look hypocritical. Jane has done the former but not the latter, because she’s doing something that would leave many people, regardless of gender, scratching their heads.

            And lest someone start playing the “male privilege” card, one of my best female friends agrees with me. I shared this link with her, and here’s her two cents on this:

            “[This article] made me facepalm. Honestly, if the woman gets it frisky again, the EXACT thing the guy is gonna think is ‘Well, maybe she changed her mind.’”

            “Logically, the argument here makes no sense. Oh, he’ll induce a guilt trip? How about the guilt trip she can cause him? A man’s feelings count in an encounter too.”

            That’s perhaps a bit less diplomatic than I would’ve put it, but she and I seem to be in agreement.

          • Apple

            Hi Lunar — you make some really good points, I really agree with your exhortation to both men and women to act maturely and respect each other.

            I just wanted to point out, though, that in the context of the story this article describes, your description of the man accepting a ‘no’ with a smile and going on his way isn’t possible, because the article says that Jane and Tom are at Tom’s apartment. It’s just a small point, but the difference it makes is that Tom actually doesn’t have the option to maturely and cheerfully depart when sex is no longer on the table, but rather he has to ask Jane to leave, which puts quite a different spin on things and seems to be leaning more toward the ‘guilt-tripping’ end. Or, I suppose, Jane could go home on her own initiative to avoid any further misunderstanding — but I think, if I were in that situation, I’d feel like that would be seen as a bit of an overreaction on my part and that the man would assume that I was either really angry or didn’t like him. If Jane is interested in Tom but not keen for sex on that particular night, I can see how she would hesitate to take such an action for fear that the relationship might not continue.

            Of course, what no one seems to be talking about is the third option available to Jane and Tom: rather than one or the other leaving, or continuing their foreplay, they could stop making out and have a cup of coffee and a chat, or do some other activity together that isn’t related to sex. The assumption that once it gets to “that time of the night” a couple on a date has to either have sex or go home seems rather pervasive, but I don’t think it has to be that way. If hooking up is causing problems, that doesn’t necessarily mean you have to just walk away from one another. You can still spend the evening together, but just get your minds out of the bedroom for that night.

            Anyway, I don’t know if I agree 100% with the original article, but your comments got me thinking so I thought I could just point out a couple of small things that you might not have thought about. :) Cheers.

          • Lefty Lou

            This exact argument, which I generally agree with, is the reason that I often set my boundaries out *before* any friskiness started when I was dating. I did the exact same thing when I first fooled around with my husband, and he said he appreciated it because it took all the guessing out of it for him. We were kissing, heading to his bedroom and I said, “Look, I really, really like you and I’m incredibly attracted to you. But I don’t want to rush into sex with you. So for tonight and for at least a little while longer, no one’s pants are coming off tonight. Okay?” He had a chance to say no, or set any boundaries of his own, like if he could only comfortably kiss me without arousal being an issue. I would have agreed to that as well. As the author points out in her follow-up, it really is about communication.

            Now, some of the other gentlemen I dated before him really did not respond well to me saying this, either because they didn’t like my decision or because they couldn’t handle me being upfront. Either way, I was glad to know their reaction. It helped for he and me to know that we had some important differences that were going to cause some issues in the short and possibly long terms (if ever there was to be one). Communication.

          • tom after date

            Not so much a fragile ego as a revulsion to fools.

          • http://www.facebook.com/steven.p.sperling Steven Posts Twice Sperling

            You know, viola, we’re not going to get anywhere if you are not going to read. The article doesn’t imply in anyway that Tom’s “fooling around” was initiated on his part. “About 10 minutes later, Tom notes that Jane is getting increasingly involved with him…” does not imply that Tom’s being all pushy and Jane’s all “no, no, no, stop! “, but implies that Jane wanted to continue to make out, and that it’s getting quite hot and heavy.

            Again, my position is: “talk about it”. Don’t say “No”, then engage in acts of a sexual nature that send a conflicting message, leaving the man sexually aroused and frustrated, and possibly in pain(yes, ladies, having a boner can *hurt*). If you don’t want to have sex with him, but wouldn’t mind making out some more, tell him that: “Tom, I like you, I just don’t think it’s right. But we can fool around a little bit, but that’s where it ends” is much better than saying “no”, then dry humping me.

            I’m also not sure how re-iterating the importance of open and honest communication “smacks” of considering men stupid, monolithic, unchanging animals driven by the baser instincts” . There is literally no way to reconcile my stated positions of the primacy and importance of communication between partners and that statement. I can only assume(which, as we know…) that you are not reading my statements, and are instead arguing against something else.

            Honestly, I’m a bit flabbergasted by you: You state you have little sympathy for my “position”. The position that open and honest communication is critical for avoid these sort of encounters? That both parties should treat each other as equal, and human? How can that be a negative position?

            Again, I am forced to assume that you are not reading my words, nor the words published in the article, You are arguing from and against a position created in your own mind, and not held or endorsed by me. We will not make any progress in this case. We are not *communicating*. Which is the problem Tom and Jane have, and because this article doesn’t say anything about “communication”, it doesn’t help to reconcile the two.

            It’s a two-way street. Feminism cannot be about subjecting men to women, and be considered a healthy philosophy. It must be about raising women to the same level of responsibility, trust and privilege as men, and treating both men and women equally and with respect, because they are human beings. This is why I am not a feminist(or a “masculinist”?), but a Humanist.

      • EyeLean5280

        I agree that you need to learn to pay attention to your own needs, ESPECIALLY on a first time. What he wants and is thinking is definitely important to be in touch with, too, but not at your expense.

    • EyeLean5280

      Well said, Alek. Both parties need to take responsibility for their two-way interaction.

      Furthermore, I think your using visible enthusiasm as your prime criterion for moving forward, even in preliminary conversation, is extremely healthy.

    • Tony

      “short of literally grabbing your cock and pushing it inside her…”

      Nah, because the next morning she (and the other feminists) will insist that you violated her rights by not ceasing and desisting immediately upon receipt of the first “no,” in spite of the fact that she was revved up, rubbing your **** through your pants, and letting you shove your tongue down her throat. By continuing to engage physically with her, you aroused emotions and chemical reactions within her body, all of which acted to reduce her resolve and cloud her dispassionate mental judgment. In short, you basically slipped her a mickey. You are guilty of rape, as surely as if you’d set upon her in a dark alley at gunpoint.

  • Zwei666

    Very disappointed.Was expecting an efficient way of coercing women into sex only to find its a women’s feelings matter too piece. So so let down. Woe is me.

    • Tom Smith

      Seems like she meant to trick us.

  • Suzanne

    Oh my.  Abigail you’ve just described my every sexual encounter.  Yipes.

    Seriously, this is an interesting take on the male-female dynamic.  Of course there’s a joke – keep the making out going until “Don’t. Stop.” becomes “Don’t stop”.  I do think we women have a responsibility here — once we say “no, I’m not ready for that right now” we can get up, walk away, and head out the door for a movie or some other non-making out activity.  An Argentinian girlfriend had a great line “darling, not now, we have all the time in the world,” as she very sexily removed herself from the situation.
    Not blaming the victim — just the scenario above reminds me of feeding my dog from the table.  If I keep feeding him from the table, he’s going to keep coming back for more food and is eventually going to try to jump on the table.  Come to think of it, if I let my poor dog in the dining room during meal time he’s going to beg for food even if he never gets fed because he can smell the meat.
    The issue I find more concerning is that, when polled, a lot of men will admit to having sex with a woman too drunk to say no, or even being physically forceful about getting sex.  They don’t think of this as rape.  Here’s a link: http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2009/11/12/rapists-who-dont-think-theyre-rapists/

    Anyway, just my two cents.  Of course, I’m an old woman so maybe I’m just not aware I can say “no” and keep making out without danger.

    • jess

      The problem here is you’re comparing men to dogs and I hold men to a much higher standard than that. Society gives men entirely too much leeway in asserting that, when it comes to sex, they have no self control and shouldn’t be held responsible for their actions. She shouldn’t have to stop making out with a man after she says no to sex, and men need to learn to interpret this as, I’m ok with making out but not ok with sex. Instead they choose to play ignorant and women continue to let them get away with this behavior because they perpetuate the men as animals stereotype when accused of doing wrong.

      Further, if he isn’t cool with just making out, he has every right to say no and move on to something else. Most people make out, grope, etc, with the understanding that you have to build up to a point in which you’re comfortable having sex with each other. This may take an hour, it may take a month, it may take a year, it may take until you get married. Whatever it takes, it’s not acceptable to push forward once a limit has been approached by your partner, and the only moral action is to either remain at the level that is encouraged by your partner, or to dial it down.

      Any man who reads an article like this in which women are stating their concerns about behaviors that make them uncomfortable and protests, talking over their needs and feelings, is a man I never want to get in the bedroom with. It tells me that, in that scenario, even if I do go to the lengths of explaining in detail what I expect from you and what I’m comfortable with, your desires are going to negate my needs and I will not be listened to, but shouted down.

      • http://www.facebook.com/steven.p.sperling Steven Posts Twice Sperling

        And you have a responsibility to let your partner know! There’s nothing wrong with a make-out session that doesn’t end in penetration. There is something wrong with not being honest to someone you want to have a relationship with, and expecting them to not have desires and needs.

        The only way to fulfill both parties is for both parties to be honest and communicate. If I, as a man, enjoy anal stimulation during sex, how can a woman I’m sleeping with know this without me telling her? If she doesn’t know it, then how can she satisfy me i nthe way I *want* to be satisfied? If she doesn’t satisfy me, how long am I going to continue having sex with her before I start feeling resentment? How can I avoid that?

        Oh, by talking to her? Communicating my desires and needs, and seeing if she’s willing to accommodate them?

  • Lauren

    This is exactly how I feel. It’s extremely stressful, uncomfortable and emotionally draining.

  • anon

    man. sometimes my boyfriend, who i love, does this. i think without meaning to. he’ll sulk or completely withdraw from me if i tell him no sometimes. even if i would be fine doing things later in the evening, just not at that very second. :(

  • bbclads

    I don’t get it. She says “no”, he respects that. Then they return to the hot ‘n heavy, which increases desires – on both their parts. Since that’s the case – and she stepped up to reengage in the activity – it’s now PRESSURING on his part to ask “Hey, you sure? Cause we’ve returned to that sexytime stuff with abandon and well, I’m getting mixed signals.”

    I’m sorry – you’ve put impossible mind-reading responsibilities and moralities on men. If she means no, she shouldn’t return to groping and tongue twisting (aka: winding them *both* up for blue balls) if she’s not intending to have intercourse. Period.

    At what point does her responsibility to be consistent in words AND actions kick in?

    • http://writtennerd.wordpress.com/ Liz Alexander

      Honestly, I agree. If you’re going to rev each other, then it seems weird and uncomfortable to suddenly throw up a stop sign…yet keep going at the same time.

      • Brigid

        I don’t understand why this is in any way confusing. “Revving eachother up for sex” does not mean sex will happen. There is no mind reading necessary. She said she did not want to have sex that night, so regardless of what she did afterwards, unless she said “I changed my mind I want to have sex with you,” she still does not want to have sex. If she does, she will say so when she is ready to say so. It’s that simple.

        That being said, saying you do not want to have sex does not mean that you do not want to do anything. It means you do not want to have sexual intercourse. As in no penetration. It does not mean “stop kissing me” or “stop touching my butt” or “stop fondling my tits” or, in this case, stop anything at all. Saying no to sex does not mean stop being sexual. It means that there is a line of how far sexually she wants to go, and regardless of how close to that line she goes, you may not cross that line, nor may you continue to attempt to cross it through physical or verbal means. It also means you may not try to push that line forward farther and farther until the line becomes arbitrary. Something that most people who are confused seem to be missing is WOMEN ARE SEXUAL BEINGS TOO. This means that THEY LIKE ENGAGING IN SEXUAL BEHAVIOR. IT IS THEIR DECISION HOW FAR THEY WANT THAT SEXUAL BEHAVIOR TO GO. Maybe they WANT to make out with some heavy petting. That doesn’t mean they want sex. Maybe they even want you to take off their clothes, or touch their breasts, or even stimulate them with your hand or want to do the same to you. That does NOT mean they want to have sex. If you can’t handle being sexual with a woman without having sex wither her, that is not her problem. That is your problem, which means it is YOUR responsibility to stop the situation from going further. If you expect to have sex with someone because they are engaging in various other sexual activities with you, that is ALSO YOUR PROBLEM, NOT HERS. If you can’t handle that, you are probably not mature enough to be having sex, because guess what my fourteen year old sexuality students understand this incredibly basic concept.

        And to the women who keep saying “I don’t understand why she would keep making out with him when she doesn’t want to have sex” because you have never experienced this: Everyone’s sexuality is different. You are not all women. You are one woman with one set of experiences and just because your experience has never been like this does not make this very common sexual experience any less valid. Maybe you only engage in any sexual acts when you plan to have sex. Well, A++ for you, that is really great that you are so simple. That doesn’t mean that all women fit that particular narrative. Most women like being sexual. Most people like being sexual. That doesn’t mean every woman wants to have sex every time. If a woman says no, it is not her responsibility to repeat it until her partner believes her. It is her partner’s responsibility to listen the first time.

        If you are still confused, imagine this scenario. You are baking cupcakes with a friend, but you are saving the cupcakes for after dinner. After dinner is some arbitrary time that you will get to chose later because they are your cupcakes and you have the right to make that distinction. Your friend, who is helping you bake these cupcakes, wants to eat them now. You say you do not want to eat them now, but you continue to bake cupcakes with your friend. Later, your friend says “Are you sure you don’t want to eat them now? It’s just that they look so good, and you keep decorating them with that delicious looking frosting and I just want one so bad.” Again, you say you do not want to eat the cupcakes now. You already said earlier that you wanted to save the cupcakes for a different time, but your friend keeps asking if they can eat them. You go back to baking cupcakes because you like baking cupcakes and you want to keep baking them and, even though they do smell really good and you kind of want to eat one now, you still want to save them for later. Maybe you’ve baked lots of cupcakes before, and sometimes you ate them right after you baked them before you could even frost them, but this time you want to wait to eat them until after dinner. Your friend doesn’t understand how you could keep baking these cupcakes, and even kind of want to eat a cupcake, but are still insisting that you both wait until after dinner. The more you decorate them with flowers and sprinkles, the more you both want to eat them, but you still want to save them, and already said so. Eventually, you let your friend lick some of the frosting because you felt bad about refusing your friend the cupcakes, even though they knew you were saving them specially for later and you told them so. They made you feel really good about how nice your cupcakes looked and how delicious they smelled, it felt like you weren’t respecting them if you didn’t let them have any at all. Now that you let them lick some frosting, though, they want more. They want a whole scoop of frosting, and a piece of one of the cupcakes, and maybe also some sprinkles. They aren’t being impolite about it, in fact they are being very nice about it. They’re saying please and they’re making you feel so good about your cupcakes, you feel bad about saying you want to save them for later over and over and eventually let them have some cupcakes. You still feel bad because you wanted to save them and it was kind of important to you to save them for later, but now your friend is happy and you even had some cupcakes too and they were really good cupcakes, but you still kind of wish you had saved them because now you will spoil your dinner and you just weren’t quite ready to eat cupcakes yet.

        Obviously this is not a perfect metaphor, as eating cupcakes is very different from having sex and involves a lot more trust etc, but you get the idea. No means no, not ask again later, no matter what you do after saying no.

        • http://writtennerd.wordpress.com/ Liz Alexander

          That’s a lot of text. I’m not willing to get into a debate on this. Read over the first paragraph though.

          The promiscuous, single lifestyle as always struck me as a weird, confusing place, so I made my own rules and stuck to them. I didn’t make out with a guy until I was on the edge of marrying him.

          Gotta say, I’m really glad I decided that, for all the reasons folks brought up here. :)

          Full-on making out without the possibility of going all the way sounds like the best way to frustrate either yourself or your partner or both. :/

        • omgcupcakes!

          I actually like the cupcake metaphor. I see it a little differently though.

          You’re baking cupcakes with a friend. He asks if he can eat one. You say “after dinner”. You then finish baking some cupcakes and you and he start licking the frosting off a cupcake and nibbling at some crumbs falling off.

          And it’s really not fair to ask again if it’s not okay to eat one? Because some would say that licking the frosting and nibbling the crumbs is almost another way of eating the cupcake.

          Just a thought. Cupcake metaphors are weird. :-)

        • EyeLean5280

          Brigid, I’ll have to say, this approach seems like a recipe for life-long unhappiness.

          Of course no adult should pressure someone for sex when it’s unwanted, but good Lord, if it’s clear your make-out partner is getting turned on enough for sex and you don’t want it, then why the hell would you continue making out? For your own pleasure at the price of his discomfort? Isn’t predatory pleasure what you’re arguing against?

          This kind of one-sided feminism gives real feminists, who see men as fellow human beings, a bad name.

          • EyeLean5280

            And by the way, believing that *both* partners should be considerate and being someone who cares about the men she kisses doesn’t make me “simple.” In fact, it shows I’m operating on a rather more complex inter-relational plane.

            However, calling people names like “simple” does make you a bitch.

          • jess

            Way to buy into the sexual myth that boners hurt men. This is exactly the type of pressure men use to talk women into sleeping with them, “You gave me a boner and if we don’t have sex I’m gonna get blue balls.” All my research suggests that boners don’t actually hurt, and that if it does, that’s a sign that there is something wrong with your penis.

            Obviously I can’t compare how my vagina feels when I’m aroused and not able to stimulate it, but it’s a fact of life that you can’t always get off when your body wants to. If you can’t deal with that you have a very serious problem, and should definitely excuse yourself from the situation entirely. Just as the woman exercised her right to say no, a man needs to exercise his right to stop making out if he’s not comfortable with it.

          • http://www.facebook.com/steven.p.sperling Steven Posts Twice Sperling

            “all your reasearch?”, what the hell does that mean? Prolonged erections hurt, and that’s simple medical fact, and it can be caused by prolonged sexual arousal without release. The actual penis rarely hurts, but the genital area can become sore and the pain is uncomfortable. It’s typically associated with adolescent males, but it can happen to grown men, especially if the stimuli are extreme. This should not be seen as an excuse to force a woman to do something she doesn’t want to.

            If you can’t communicate honestly with someone you are sexually involved with, then you have a very serious problem and shouldn’t be dating. If you can’t tell a man: “No” without feeling that he’s going to leave you, so decide to let him do things you don’t want to do? You again, have a serious problem. If you think it’s alright to discomfort another person, so you can derive satisfaction? Guess what? You have an effin’ problem. And that cuts both ways: if a man does all this same crap? He’s got a problem.

            Communication: it’s important.

        • http://www.facebook.com/steven.p.sperling Steven Posts Twice Sperling

          The metaphor is lovely for casting a woman as a passive object that things happen to, rather than as an active agent in the world, responsible for it’s own destiny. Cupcake isn’t a woman, she’s an an object, something which is acted upon, but which does not act in it’s self. Responsibility, which you handily foist on the male solely in your examples, in the case of two consenting adults, not exclusive to one part or the other, but shared between the two.

          You also seem to view sex as an end-state, rather than a flux state. It’s not as if there is a clear demarcation that occurs when vaginal or anal(or mouth? Is that “sex” to you?) penetration occurs, and now the man can just do what he wants. Through-out the whole duration of the sexual encounter, consent must be constant and mutual for both parties involved to have satisfaction and emotional fulfillment. I don’t understand how this can be achieved without constant and honest communication.

          If I’m doing something you don’t like, then I want to know about it, so I can stop doing it. Equally, if you’re doing something I don’t like, then I will tell you, because I don’t like it. If I’m having sex, contrary to popular myth about men being super horny and lustful monsters, it’s for an emotional connection and enjoyment, not just to reach orgasm. I’m going to be constantly attentive to your body language, constantly seeking encouragement and satisfaction for you. If you arn’t honest with me during sex, we will never have a mutually pleasurable and enjoyable sex life that doesn’t lead to feelings of resentment.

          I mean, where is this “no” line for sex? What does it include? If we are making out, and I begin to kiss your jaw line and bite your neck, is that the line? Or can I continue to the shoulder and clavicle? Lower still? Can you kiss and nibble my belly button, or is that “sex”? If I kiss your navel, how low can I go before I need to be asking if this is too far? Where can my hands go, what is acceptable, what’s beyond the pale?

          How can I know any of this, unless I ask? If it’s making you feel uncomfortable, then let me know! You have to let me know what is permissible and what is not. I say this as a man who has no problem with not having intercourse, but very much liking the non intercourse parts of sex. I absolutely love when my partner allows me to please them for extended periods of time, because when I look in her eyes, I see the most amazing universe in existence.

          To end this: sex is not a discrete, easily segmented action or state, but a fluid and dynamic state that flows and ebbs. Consent and communication are necessary through-out the whole process, as is honesty. Without any of those, it’s going to be emotionally damaging for BOTH parties. Do you part to prevent rape culture, become a responsible agent today!

    • http://vulvs.tumblr.com/ oofstar

      if she says no, and he can’t get hot and heavy without going all the way, it’s on him to end the encounter there. if they keep fooling around, and she’s already said she doesn’t want to have sex, wait for her to bring up sex or deal with the fact that you aren’t going to have it.

      i really don’t see anything confusing about that, and certainly nothing mind reading related.

      she said no to having sex. not no to groping. why does it have to be all or nothing?

    • Teny

      I don’t see how it would require mind reading. You’ve asked if she wanted sex, she said no. If your partner is an adult human being, why is it so hard to expect them to act like, y’know, an adult human being, and let you know if they change their mind, rather than constantly badgering them about whether they have like one of you is some kind of small child.
      If your partner is not an adult human being, it is time to rethink your life choices.

      • jess

        Seriously. What part of vocalizing an objection is expecting your partner to read your mind?

        • http://www.facebook.com/steven.p.sperling Steven Posts Twice Sperling

          The part where you say “no” to sexual advances, and then start putting the sex moves on the guy again?

          tom and Jake are arguing. Tom pushes jake and says: “You wanna fight about it?!” Jake says “No, I don’t”. Ten minutes later, Jake walks over and punches Tom in the face. Tom jumps up, balls his fists and says: “You wanna fight now!”, at which point Jake says: “Nah man, I just wanna push you around for a bit and maybe hit you a few times. But don’t do the same to me!”.

          Seriously, we could take this scenario and make it about anything other than sex, and the same problem emerges: verbal communication is not in sync with non verbal communication and leads to different assumptions being made.

          • http://twitter.com/foxglovezayuri Foxglove Zayuri

            I’m sorry, but your scenario doesn’t quite sync. What you described would be akin to Jane putting Tom’s penis inside her and then continuing to say she didn’t want sex.

            I think I see the problem, after skimming through the comments. Half of the people here seem to view making out/groping as a precursor to sex; the other half see making out/groping and sex as two separate, distinct things that may or may not overlap.

            I can see now why this would lead to difficulties. Neither view is wrong or bad. We all just need to learn to communicate better. That seems to be the general consensus.

          • http://www.facebook.com/steven.p.sperling Steven Posts Twice Sperling

            Sex is a fuzzy subject at the best of times, and down right murky most of the times. What is defined as sex, what isn’t sex, and what limits do we place on sex? With such a complex, thorny subject, the only way to be sure is to communicate, honestly, with the other person.

            That’s my problem with the original scenario: Jane isn’t being honest about her sexual intentions with Tom. Tom doesn’t know if Jane has changed her mind(“Hey, she’s grinding her junk against my junk and moaning… maybe she’s interested now?”), he doesn’t know if she’s just testing him to see how he performs(After-all, it’s a fact that most women do not orgasm from penetration alone) as a partner, and there’s no way to resolve this uncertainty in the original article.

            The whole article has Jane NOT being honest with Tom. Time inquires about sex, Jane says “no”, and then continues engaging in sex acts(And please, PLEASE stop acting like sex has to be penetration alone. My partner and I have both achieved orgasms, or very close to it from fully clothed, but vigorous dry-humping sessions.). In the article, Tom suddenly shifts from beign a “nice guy” who Jane has been comfortabele with multiple times, to a sex crazed manipulator, close-to-rapist whose motivation is now solely to fuck Jane. And Jane’s response when asked again? She laughs and flirts, but says no. Rather than telling Tom that she’s not comfortable with sex just yet, she obfuscates the issue and makes it seem like it’s no big deal, so Tom continues thinking: “hey, no big deal”.

            I’m not trying to tell people they are wrong, per se, I’m saying that from the male perspective, this whole scenario is very confusing and full of failed opportunities for communication. Yes, some men are overbearing pressuring fucks, and most of us can be overly aggressive when we think a woman is into us. But A lot of us can also admit to being very confused by women and their desires, and articles such as this one don’t help us out at all.

  • Married For 11 Years

    Tom’s mistake was asking a question with his big mouth instead of his hands, right?

  • http://www.facebook.com/steven.p.sperling Steven Posts Twice Sperling

    You know what, this is absolute bull squat, for a variety of reasons, but the chief one is lack of communication. We communicate with people through our words, our tone and inflection and our body language. If I ask my brother: “hey man, you alright ” and he says “yeah”, but he’s balling his fists and clenching his jaw, then I know he’s lying to me. Similarly, if a woman says “no”, and then after a pause, we begin to make out and things are getting heated, with her gyrating against my genitals, me groping her body, and she’s making all the normal arousal signs obvious? Now I’m the bad guy for not being able to tell which of the communication vectors is the “true” one?

    If you want me to be honest, respect your feelings, respect you and your wishes, and be the man you want me to be? Then you have to be honest and forthright, and that means not telling me “no” with your words, but then telling me “yes yes yes, please! Right theeeeere!” with your lips, hands and body. Because if you do that, then that lets me know that you do not intend to be honest with me, you don’t respect my emotions, wishes or desires, and that I cannot trust your stated words or actions. That’s a recipe for a disastrous relationship.

    The other night, me and the woman I love met up at a bar with her friend. Later, I picked her up from her house, we came back to my apartment, she tortured my brother’s parrot for an hour, we watched some teevee(with her laying her head in my lap), and because I’d had a little too much to drink, I asked her if it’d be ok for her to stay the night and I take her home in the morning. That was cool.

    When we went to bed, she was still fully dressed, I changed into a pair of jogging pants(I normally sleep in the nude). On both of our parts, this was a clear indication, I feel, that we didn’t think sex was on the menu, as previously we would sleep in the nude together, and let the chips fall where they may. She laid her head on my chest, I had my arms around her, and things were good. At one point we kissed a few times, two brief kisses, then a more passionate kiss that quickly led to an entanglement of our bodies for a second or two before she pulled away and we composed ourselves, and she went to sleep. I stayed awake for hours, tortured by arousal, but also by my sense of loyalty and duty to the woman I one day seek to marry and have children with, and I let it go, and I harbor no regrets of that night.

    However, she performed one vital thing to prevent feelings of resentment: she was honest and prudent, and stopped the situation that could have led to less than consensual sex(I wouldn’t call it rape, but I believe we both would have regretted our actions the next day. Yes we both wanted it, we both enjoyed it, but we didn’t *need* it, and it would drive a wedge between us) before it could go to far. In fact, I’m probably more in love with her because she didn’t just “roll-over” and give me what my body wants, but what neither of us wanted in our hearts and minds.

    So while men might be guilty of not hearing the word “no”, women can be just as guilty of saying “no” with their words, but “yes” with their actions. We are not children, we know that if you do particular things they cause arousal, we know what arousal looks and feels like(or we *should*), and we should be responsible(both parties) enough to know when the words we say are not in line with the actions we exhibit.

    • jess

      So thank you for taking one type of sexuality completely off the table for people who enjoy it because of your narrow viewpoint on the subject. Sometimes I just want to makeout and grope and that makes me a bad person because my partner might get turned on by this? He has it within his power to also say no if he doesn’t want the same things.

      When I makeout, all that means is that I’m consenting to making out, when I grope, it means I’m consenting to groping, when I go further, it means I’m consenting to going further. When I say no to something, that means a line has been crossed and things need to either stay at the level they were, go down a notch or two, or cease entirely. The sooner you understand that making out and groping is not an agreement to penetration the better off you’ll be.

      • http://www.facebook.com/steven.p.sperling Steven Posts Twice Sperling

        “Sometimes I just want to makeout and grope and that makes me a bad person because my partner might get turned on by this” You are the bad person because you didn’t communicate with your partner. Your partner clearly indicated a desire for sex, you said no, then launched into a make-out session and started giving him a tugger. Now he’s supposed to be able to read your mind and know that you just want to make out? And when he asks about it, your response is to get insulted/offended because he’s “pressuring” you? Get over yourself.

        I am not saying that make out = sex, I’m saying that two adults who are both attracted to each other should communicate and be honest with each other: “Tom, I really like you, and I think you’re amazing, but I’m just not sure if I want to go that far with you tonight. But if you wanna fool around for a bit, that’s fine”. The worst case scenario in this is that Tom says no and you don’t make-out. The best case? Maybe Tom goes down on jane for an hour, giving her multiple orgasms, and then takes a bathroom break to finish himself up. But both parties can leave the encounter feeling like they got what they wanted.

        I don’t know why this is so hard, or why so many “feminists” have to turn simple problems into world shattering Man vs. Woman conflicts. Talk to your partner, communicate with them.

  • Ben

    What’s with this notion of reserving the option to change one’s mind? I can respect a “no”, but the idea that you may change your mind and that you wish to continue the heavy petting, aren’t you basically just asking your guy to keep trying? You don’t want to stop all the physical fun, and if he gets you hot enough, you may even go back on your no, but, you just don’t want him to utter it out loud after that first time because now he’s pressuring you? what a crock. Assert yourself woman and be strong in your decision and your actions. Don’t be a flaky tease and maybe he’ll better understand that “no” that you haven’t decided if you mean yet or not.

  • Modwin

    Beware. Cracked.com has become aware of the existance of this post. Trolls on thier way.

    • http://twitter.com/foxglovezayuri Foxglove Zayuri

      I’m here from cracked, and I swear I’m not a troll. In fact, most of us aren’t really that scary. :)

      • http://www.facebook.com/steven.p.sperling Steven Posts Twice Sperling

        Yup, I came here from Cracked.com, and this has actually helped me with my current relationship a great deal.

  • disqus_yPsqsV8QPA

    People have discussed communication but I think some people have missed that it’s not nothing or full intercourse. There’s a lot of stages in between hanging out on the sofa and penetration.

    It’s very much possible and probable that a person might want to just make out, just touch, just oral and not more. If one interprets any one of those things as a direct lead to more, then the parties involved need to talk their stances out, clearly. Ideally though, it would be discussed before they had reached that point.

  • Viola Grey

    I love this article. Thank you for writing it. I’ve been trying to find a way to articulate this exact scenario. It is exhausting.

  • Elise

    I’ve always found full disclosure to be the easiest here: not just “no,” but also the duration of “no” and the alternatives for “no” (i.e. stop touching me). Options include:

    “I don’t want to have sex tonight, but I wouldn’t mind fooling around for a while– that is, if you don’t mind making out without the possibility of sex at the end.” If he asks again, you can put it on him: “Oh, do you want to stop making out? If it’s going to be uncomfortable for you to not end this with sex, we can go ahead and stop right now.”

    “I don’t want to have sex tonight, and to be honest, while I’m enjoying the groping, I don’t think I’m going to want to have sex for a while– I like to take relationships slow. Is this going to be a major problem for you?” If he asks again, you can laugh and say: “That’s flattering, but you already know I’m not going to have sex in the first weeks/months of our relationship. Trust me, when I’m ready, I’ll tell you.”

    In either case, if there’s a third question, it’s time to call a halt to the makeout and probably to the relationship. “Tom, why are you making this so weird and awkward? I’ve already told you I don’t want to have sex tonight and offered a couple of times to stop this if it’s going to be too much for you. I think it’s time to stop so you can come to your senses.”

    • http://www.facebook.com/clint.hobson Clint Hobson

      That would be perfect solution, pretty much any guy would stop at that. Trouble is, most girls are not that strong minded to be able to formulate that way of talking and stand their ground like that, in the moment. Most girls sort of clam up and give weak protests.

      There does need to be education on this topic, like someone said earlier.

    • http://www.facebook.com/steven.p.sperling Steven Posts Twice Sperling

      You know, I like this solution, and I hate that I missed it. It’s perfect, and it lets me know what I need to know.

    • http://twitter.com/foxglovezayuri Foxglove Zayuri

      This right here is what Sex Ed should *really* be about. Not some political agenda about birth control (or lack thereof), but a discussion about communication issues that might come up, and how to best avoid sticky situations (I wanna say ‘no pun intended’, but yeah, it kind of was).

  • Eddie

    Then the woman in this situation is wrong for escalating the sexual encounter even though she said no to sex. You cant say no but then stop an inch from the line while being confused at the man’s reactions.

  • Samantha

    Well, it could help to not lead a guy on? I mean.. When you’re all over him and giving him the green light, he’s going to think that he can get something out of it.

    Why not explain your stance the first time and then let him know what you would rather do? Instead of expecting him to read your mind, that would give him more confidence.

  • SayNoToRape

    Yes. Another article reminding us of how evil men are. And how the woman – who by the way is to be treated as an equal (woot!!) – is the one that is always victimized and to be pitied. Is she flirting with you? Teasing you? Toying with you? BLAME YOURSELF!! That’s right!! Why? Because she can do no wrong! She is a lady. You are a savage. She is doing you a favor by even being in your room. Take comfort in that…

    Honestly, I think we need to cut the crap. If she doesn’t put out, don’t pressure her, don’t bug her, just TELL HER TO GET OUT. That is why I don’t believe buying stuff for women until AFTER sex. Don’t invest too much early on so it will be easy to throw her out when the BS excuses start flying. In the mean time, there is always porn. And porn NEVER tells you “No.” And the best part? You didn’t pressure/ rape anybody. Clean slate…

    • http://twitter.com/foxglovezayuri Foxglove Zayuri

      Somebody sounds a bit bitter… :/

    • Fed_Up18

      No, the BEST part is that the woman is free to go to a more mature partner.

  • thatguy

    jane and tom should have just went home and jerked off

  • Lunar Archivist

    If I were Tom, I’d dump Jane like a sack of potatoes and go find someone else to date who wasn’t sending mixed signals or confusing the hell out of me. This whole situation is just frustrating and annoying for everyone involved.

  • Kyle

    What I’m noticing about all of the responses both from men and women is that there is a common trend here. The trend is that women seem to feel that their perspective and feelings trumps all. In other words, they way they view the situation in their eyes in the only right way to see it and as a result us men are the enemy because we don’t always view things in the female perspective.

    Granted, that applies to tom as well and he should have been trying to analyze her feelings and know that what this article describes was precisely what she was going on in her head. Even though it wasn’t how he perceived it, its how she was perceiving it, and he should take that into consideration.

    On the flip side of things, women need to understand that us men do not view the world like you do. Men are much more black and white. As many of the posters are saying, and I can concur, is that if a girl invites you inside her apartment after a date and starts making out with you, 100% of men are going to come to one conclusion, “she wants to have sex with me right now”. Now the women may say actions such as these don’t imply a desire to have sex, however that is only true for females. A smart women would not seek to have her cake and eat it too. She would understand the discrepancy and decide the best course of action is to avoid the situation altogether. In other words her inner dialog should go something like this, “I really want to step this up a bit and maybe try a little making out with him, however, I know he’s going to want sex if I invite him up and make out with him. Maybe I should just make out in the car instead, or just not make out with him until I’m ready to have sex.”. She would then be of the understanding that basically, what she wants, is not an available option.

    Finally, you have to couple this fact with the overall general mixed signals women give about what it is they want from men, and I don’t mean that just sexually. Many women complain that men are not aggressive enough, don’t chase them enough, aren’t sexual enough, etc. then complain when a guy finally is assertive, tries to take what he wants, and isn’t afraid to show his sexuality. If you are going to ask for something, you have to take the good with the bad. You can’t expect us guys to be mind readers and know exactly when to be assertive and when to be a puppy dog. You can’t expect us to know when you want us to rip your clothes off and have our way with you and when you just want to cuddle and be gentle. Since women are less black and white and more gray, it becomes a lot harder to ascertain what shade of gray (no pun intended), she is at in the current moment.

    As many have stated, and this goes for most situation in dating, the best solution is solid 100% communication. In this situation there is an easy way to combat that fact that Jane wants to step things up a little but not all the way to sex, and Tom wants to have sex. She can simply say to him “I like you a lot and want step things up a little, I don’t want to have intercourse yet, but I would like to get a bit more intimate, maybe some making out or something.”. It sounds cheesy to come out and say that so bluntly, but you have no idea how many guys would appreciate this. A mindset like this is far more abstract that you think. It’s more than a yes or no answer can explain which is why us guys need help in reading your mind and exactly what it is you want. Inviting us to your apartment and simply saying no, does not point a detailed enough picture of exactly what it is you want.

  • jeff

    libido here is biasedly gendered. Women also get sooo irritating when all they want sex. Understand, Sex is gender neutral.

  • Bilko

    I’m finding a lot of Ben’s comments to be quite disturbing and indicative of an unpleasant mindset. Agreed that men and women often have different ways of seeing or approaching situations but if a woman says no that should be the end of it.

    Whether or not she’s ‘leading him on’ maybe Tom can be the one to say ‘OK, I respect that, let’s just end it here for the evening’. Jane’s made it clear she doesn’t want to take it to the next level, if Tom isn’t happy carrying on with what they’re doing then he can put a stop to it. Easy.

    No one’s forcing you to take part in something; as you pointed out, communication goes both ways. Jane has made her position clear, Tom can easily do the same without being a dick about it.

  • Pingback: Sharing the love « The Lady Garden

  • EyeLean5280

    As a woman who is, shall we say, a tad older than you and with more life experience, I would like to point out that there actually *is* a difference, in fact a very substantial difference, between forcing a woman to have sex and pressuring her.

    Sure, pressuring isn’t very nice but the way you yourself have sketched out this scenario, Tom isn’t a Big Bad Wolf, he’s just immature and not very self aware.

    Which, as far as I can see, makes him a perfect match for Jane.

  • http://twitter.com/dontmakemeover Kristen Mohr

    The thing that I don’t understand (and this has been brought up a little) is why, if a man feels that making out will rev him up so much that he can’t handle not having sex even after the woman tells him she doesn’t want to, he can’t end the making out himself. Am I missing something? Why are women the nannies of your sexual desire? If you’re not able to do something, then don’t do it. You can say no just the same way she can. But noooo, “a man can never say no to sex because then he wouldn’t be a man”. Bullshit.

    • http://www.facebook.com/steven.p.sperling Steven Posts Twice Sperling

      The man should be responsible in this situation. But the problem is, again, we’re talking about a very fuzzy subject: what “counts as sex” and where do we draw the line? The only way to know these things is to communicate, which means that if things are getting too uncomfortable for Jane, she needs to let Tom know, and if Tom’s too uncomfortable, he needs to let Jane know. Playing a guessing game with each other’s emotions is just a recipe for disaster for their relationship.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=10400006 Abigail Collazo

    Hi everyone. First off, I want to say thank you for the very respectful and interesting discussion the renewed interest in this post has generated. I’ve just returned from working on the President’s re-election campaign in Florida, so I’m just catching up with the conversation now, (several days late I’m afraid) – and I’ve been really impressed. So thank you to everyone for not trolling a website and article that is near and dear to me.

    A lot of people here have raised extremely interesting points – namely, about forms of communication. My own thinking on this topic has developed quite a bit since I originally wrote this piece after a series of bad encounters with men who didn’t seem to understand what was wrong with asking me such leading questions over and over. Putting me constantly on defense and constantly having to explain myself – as though if I couldn’t articulate in that exact instance an argument they found compelling, I had no right to be refusing them. And so I wrote this piece and received quite a lot of feedback.

    I believe ultimately, what it comes down to is not just communication or even over communication, but a question of HOW we communicate about sex, particularly with people who we don’t know very well. I realized after a lot of reflection (long after I wrote this piece), that the reason I felt so strongly about Jane’s verbal “no” is because I am a very verbal person (I am, after all, a writer). I experience the world around me using words and sentence construct and take verbal indications very seriously. To me, a verbal “no” always overrides a physical “yes.” And because part of human nature is assuming other people are like you (do onto others, etc.), I have been assuming that other people are verbal people as well – or even, that men have NOT had encounters with women who were not exactly like me, and perhaps, for whom, a physical “yes” (pulling him in, starting up again), does hold the same weight as the verbal “no”, (if not more), and ergo it was perfectly acceptable for Tom to have assumed Jane wanted to continue.

    But a few notes on that. First of all, while it’s possible that such encounters no longer make me feel incredibly, incredibly angry at Tom, I still believe there are better ways of ascertaining how Jane is feeling than by asking pressuring questions. “Are you sure?” “Don’t you think it’d be good?” “Don’t you trust me?” “Why not?” “How do you know you won’t like it with me until you’ve tried it?” “Have you figured out yet why you keep saying no to me?” etc., are all phrases I’ve heard from men (often in rapid succession over the course of the night), and are all phrases I find unacceptable with someone you respect. They’re pressuring – pure and simple.

    But there are other ways. If you need ask for clarification because her physical signals seem contrary to her verbal indication, why not ask your questions in a more open-ended way? Here are some examples: “Did you change your mind?” “Do you want me to touch you here?” “Is this ok?” “where you do you want this to go now?” or even “I’m confused – can you help me out?” These are all questions that I (and I know many of my girlfriends) appreciate hearing from someone they’re involved with – it shows you care, it shows you are engaging us as people and not as sex objects, and it doesn’t pressure us to give one answer or another, but often demands that we take even further responsibility for our actions and don’t leave everything up to you.

    Of course, this doesn’t solve the problem of how we communicate. Some people are simply not verbal people, and they’re better at communicating via actions than words. Let’s be honest, that’s half the flirting fun – giving physical signals of desire. And of course, when you engage in such physical activity with someone you don’t know that well, you risk that there may be differences in communication styles, and even expectations.

    That said, we need to have some generally accepted parameters, so that what starts out as pressure (wrong – I believe – but often not illegal), does not become rape, which is both illegal and wrong. And because physical signals and cues are too often misconstrued, the law has determined that verbally communicating “no” always overrides other forms of communication.

    Personally, given unacceptably high levels of sexual violence in our culture, I’m more a supporter of what feminist activist Jaclyn Friedman calls a “Yes Means Yes” culture, over a “No Means No” culture. Why? Because even our legal system is nowhere close to recognizing the problems inherent with “no means no.” Just a few weeks ago, a judge in Connecticut overturned the conviction of a man who had sexually assaulted a severely mentally disabled girl who could not speak. Why? Because the judge claims this girl could have kicked or bitten or done something else to indicate to him that she did not consent. Actually, the judge says she must PROVE she did those things.

    Even though women are often taught that it is more dangerous to fight back. Even though being sexually assaulted can be incredibly frightening and often paralyzing. Even though this severely mentally disabled woman had approximately the mental capacities of a 12 year old. Let’s be real – not for a second do I believe that a man who is forcing himself on a severely disabled woman would have stopped suddenly if she had kicked him. Or presuming she did, been able to prove that she kicked him.

    Which is why “yes means yes” is so much safer. I’m not in any way saying we should all have to sign notarized consent forms for each and every physical activity, but the point is that if you respect the person you’re with, you’re better off recognizing what pressure looks like, thinking first and foremost about whether you BOTH want what is happening, and what the best way is of ascertaining that.

    A final note: This is, admittedly, a very heteronormative article and equally so response. Not because I do not believe such issues are a part of the homosexual community, but because being straight, I’m not in a position to comment on them from personal experience. But no one should leave this discussion believing that gay couples automatically do not face such issues. And going along with that, while I do believe these issues (as all are involving sexual violence), impact women as the victims and men as the aggressors more often than the flip, no one should leave this discussion believing that these scenarios cannot or do not play out in the reverse as well. Plenty of women are aggressive and pressuring about sex, and plenty of men will find themselves in Jane’s situation as well.

    Thanks again to everyone for the great discussion. I probably should have just made this into another, follow up blog post, but oh well .

  • wendykh

    yeah… this is more about women being socialized to be messed up about sex than men being douches. This is about patriarchal crap instilled in men and women, where men are expected to be these super stud alpha males and women are to be demure and manipulate him to coax a yes from her, so she can not worry about feeling like a bad bad girl. Why would anyone feel pressure by “are you sure?” Maybe I’m a bitch but I would just say “yeah I’m totally sure” and I have done so. Now I have felt the pressure from pouting but this is just silly crap in this example, of women not socialized to be assertive with sex and men unsure what the hell she means thanks to said socialization. I think it’s normal a guy is confused when her body is saying oh hell yes and her mouth says no. This isn’t fair to men or women, not to mention the whole weird set up of only her sexual needs being important. Ironically, this usually happens in reverse in my relationship. My husband always wants to cuddle and I’m sitting there staring at the ceiling thinking “omg this is torture ugh.” I keep asking him would you go up to a buffet and smell and inhale and moan about how good the scents made you feel and then claim to not be hungry? Please.
    I don’t mean to dismiss socialization but this is what happens when your body wants sex and the patriarchal society we live in puts all kinds of restrictions on it which if unfollowed result in slut-shaming.

    • http://www.facebook.com/steven.p.sperling Steven Posts Twice Sperling

      Wendy, you’re absolutely right. I’ve run into this a lot when the “Patriarchy” starts getting thrown around loosely without realizing what it really means. Patriarchal societies are not where men have the power over women, but where a specific subset of men(the “Fathers”) have power over both men and women. In a Patriarchy, men are just as much a victim of the “Fathers” as women, they just have the opportunity to become a “Father”, but only by acting like a “father”.

  • Kim

    This
    is a great article that’s nonetheless missing an extremely important
    point: Asking repeatedly means “I’m not taking no for an answer.”

  • Heather Salley

    I dunno I kind of feel like I should call Bull. If you said No don’t go past a point with a guy. It’s only natural for ANYONE to assume if it’s getting hot and heavy sex may be a possibility. When you say no don’t start to round first base, keep it there. If she starts putting on the moves – I don’t blame the guy for being concerned about getting a damn condom.

    • Fed_Up18

      And which point is that? What is “first base”? And if, after he thinks she’s changed her mind, she says “Oh, I am giving you the wrong signal, we’ll stop,” what then? In your scenario, how upset does he get *then*?

  • neal

    The problem starts right here: “She says ‘tonight’ whether she means it or not because she doesn’t want him to dump her immediately, thinking he’ll never get any.” There needs to be open communication. If she is hedging her bets, then he can’t be faulted for trying to understand what she wants. Remember that men are *expected* to be somewhat agressive and make a move. To not be aggressive enough sometimes sends ‘I’m luke-warm about you’ signals. Both parties need to communicate clearly, listen well, and lose the expectations.

  • Dave

    I have a few problems with your article.

    1.) If Jane is still initiating the contact after saying no, then Tom is only asking out of confusion from what she’s saying and what she’s doing. I don’t think that warrants a punch in the face.

    2.) You’re pretty relentless with the Tom bashing starting with this line: “Tom starts to stroke his own ego.” I get the feeling that you are just a little biased against men. The clearest evidence of this is…

    3.) This paragraph:

    “Being a woman requires always being on defense. Walking down the street during the day means you have to be on ready alert to glare at any man who harasses you. Walking down the street at night means perpetually doing reconnaissance about your surroundings, all the while gripping your keys or mace or other weapon of choice. Being at the office means you need to be cautious about being too friendly with men who may misinterpret your smile as an invitation to sexually harass you, and being on the metro means you need to be wary of standing too close to men who are taller than you because they’ll most likely try to look down your shirt. It’s actually quite exhausting.”

    That’s a little unfair to guys, because it demonizes everyone with a penis as a lech and paints any compliment we give you as harassment. Personally, I think it’s an unhealthy mindset because it makes you see threats everywhere. We aren’t that bad! Give us a little credit.

  • Trevortni

    I’m of the opinion that your urge to punch Tom in the face comes about five seconds too soon (though with that many “u”s in “suuuure”, you might have a point after all, but I’ll reduce those to one for the sake of making my point).

    And my point is that he was asking if she wanted a condom.

    You see, he noticed that after her initial “no”, her body language seemed to indicate that she might have changed her mind, and frankly, he’s starting to find his own self-control to have dwindled from 10 minutes prior as well. So he throws out a communication safety net, asking in sincerity and without a surplus of “u”s if she’s sure about the condom. You’re probably right that if she wants to have sex she will indicate it soon enough by what she does. However, I think most men will have difficulty remembering the condom at the point that she is physically grabbing him and stuffing him inside her, as another commenter advised him to wait for. And if she had previously indicated that she doesn’t care about such things, it would be fine for him to wait for that, because it doesn’t matter.

    So he asks her if she is sure, and she says no.

    And this is where he gets to show what he is made of. If he continues to let matters develop, having stopped just short of his point of no return, then he deserves what you have said about him. But if he truly is a man that cares about her, instead he uses that nasty word “communication”, and tells her that, in that case, he thinks they should hit the brakes. He’s gotten a little over-stimulated, and he can’t guarantee that things won’t reach their inevitable conclusion if they don’t stop (or at the very least slow way down). But he cares for her, and so he is going to have to do something that they will both probably simultaneously regret and feel very good about him for, and get out of Dodge, to whatever level is appropriate for the situation.

    To do anything else after having identified that you are heading for trouble is to disrespect the decision she has stated.

    P.S. It might be that Jane will change her mind after this proclamation and decide that he should grab that condom after all. But Tom, having been remade into a “real man”, does NOT expect that, and instead wishes her a good night in all sincerity, and hopes that he will be able to see her again soon, for their -th + 1 date.

  • http://twitter.com/foxglovezayuri Foxglove Zayuri

    THIS IS SO GODDAMN TRUE. Thank you for writing this! JUST earlier
    this week I got into a HUGE argument with a friend about PRECISELY THIS!
    I really would like to show him this now… thank you so much for so
    clearly and respectfully articulating something I was too caught up in
    and passionate about to articulate myself. Thank you.

  • Pingback: Our Weekly Summary: 17/11/12 | UEA Feminism Blog

  • Retnan

    And women never pressure men or do anything “wrong” it’s all the man’s fault.

  • xion

    i always hate this kinda bullshit , you should know being a man walking down the street at night means constantly clutching my keys or mace or knife or making sure i can reach my pistol in its holster . Us men are just as scared of and just as likely to be raped or murderer. we don’t have super powers.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=10400006 Abigail Collazo

      That’s actually not strictly true. Men are most definitely far more likely to be the victims of violent crime, so you’re absolutely right about that. However, women are far more likely to be the victims of sexual crimes. There’s a huge difference there, especially when you talk about rape culture. So yes, men have reason to fear back dark alleys etc., because violent crime affects them at much higher rates. But men are rarely if ever the victims of stranger sexual assault. I’m not making an argument for one type of crime being more or less traumatic than another, but different crimes affect different genders at different rates.

      • you_frakkin_sexists

        As far as I know, most rapes (western-worldwide definition, not feminist definition) happen in a previously-thought-to-be safe environment and are committed by people the woman already knows.

        Also, I don’t think that the yearly tally of rapes of women even begins to compare to the yearly tally of violent crimes against men.

    • Fed_Up18

      Betcha you don;t worry about WOMEN doing these things to you. Think about THAT.

  • you_frakkin_sexists

    I’m so happy I read this and the comments! I learned so much!

    Never again shall I feel guilty about hinting that I want to get to know her better before I am ready for a relationship, then being the perfect gentlemen on dates that can stretch over months and include visits to the seaside and the opera, meeting each other’s parents etc., finally sleeping with the woman and then never speaking to her again. After all, me making it look as if I wanted a relationship is absolutely no reason for her to assume that I want a relationship.

    Thank you, for convincing me that the worst kind of men out there, the players who f*** women and then tell them to f*** off are right in doing so. I mean, expecting anything just because you had sex with the guy is pressuring him and almost equal to rape!

  • Chunky Style

    Abigail,

    You’ve taken to recommending:

    “Did you change your mind?” “Do you want me to touch you here?” “Is this ok?” “where you do you want this to go now?” or even “I’m confused – can you help me out?”

    I’m not sure most of your recommended “improved” questions are actually improvements over “are you sure about that condom?” I’ve stripped out the “cutesy” tone because apples to apples, but I am quite certain that a comparably “cutesy” (and possibly, but not necessarily, manipulative) tone could be applied to any of the new five.

    And that’s really at issue, isn’t it? The tone, the context, and the interpretation. Just as there is tone, context, and interpretation to body language.

    So I think it’s up to Tom and Jane to each devote more than a dozen words to what they’re feeling, considering the possible consequences. To those who feel that Jane’s “not tonight” should have been the final word on the matter: seriously? You’re going to a make-out session at someone’s house, someone you don’t really know all that well, and you begrudge him more than a handful of words?

    It’s not about Jane justifying her decision to not sleep with Tom; it’s about her being clear about where she is so he can see that, no matter how heavy things are getting, it’s still not going to lead to sex. If Jane thinks Tom is worth her time, he’s worth a few sentences of exposition. But if Jane doesn’t think Tom is worth her time, well, she’s put herself in a needlessly bad situation.

    So Jane, in this story, was absolute rubbish at communication. But what could Tom have done? Perhaps Tom should have volunteered at some point early in the evening: “I’m not entirely sure where this is going, but I want whatever you’re comfortable with. So let me know if I’m going too fast or too far, okay?” Invite Jane to say “no” so she won’t have to wonder. Also, perhaps the problem isn’t asking about the condom, it’s his response to her response. After asking about the condom and being told “no” (in 13+ words, ideally enough to convey that she’s just not into bonin’ tonight), Tom could say: “That’s cool, this is good too. I’m game for whatever feels right.” Only 12 words, granted, but since he’s primarily reinforcing what he said earlier (which was well above the minimum word count), his word count average is still fine.

    I’m being a little silly with the word counts, but the basic concept is sound: talk to each other enough that you understand each other. if you can exchange saliva you can exchange words too.

  • Chunky Style

    Also, I have to wonder if you didn’t pick up on this. When Tom asked “are you suuuuuure” in a “cutesy” voice, what he was trying to do was ask in the least pressure-intensive way possible. It could be that it wasn’t the best approach, but I would bet that’s what the intention was: to pick the least aggressive tone so that Jane could feel as un-manipulated as possible, ironically enough.

    Showed your article to my roommate — who is a woman, by the way — and she wonders if you have truly internalized your right to say “no”. It shouldn’t be something you have much this trouble doing, if you aren’t physically afraid of the guy. But if you are, well …

    http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/avoid_rape.htm

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=10400006 Abigail Collazo

      Your first point makes sense to me, although I must say most women I know view that as manipulative, not cute. Although of course, as you say, intonation etc., is obviously open to interpretation. As for your roommate’s comment, well, the idea that it’s a problem the woman has if she feels pressured by incessant nagging (dare I say) is concerning to me. I’m happy that just as many people in this forum have disagreed with me as have agreed with me, but I can only agree with her in that internalizing no isn’t something women should have trouble doing. I’d also say that hearing no isn’t something men should have such trouble internalizing, and yet you don’t say your roommate commented on that (although perhaps she did). So yes, helping women (and of course men when the situation arises) internalize ‘no’ and feel more comfortable and confident in using it would definitely be a step in the right direction. But I hardly think a situation like this should be quite so casually dismissed as a woman’s problem for not being confident enough.

      • Chunky Style

        Who’s dismissing it as a woman’s problem for not being confident enough? That is AN issue, though by no means the whole of the problem. I could swear I just said something about how communication would fix this right up, and that didn’t change just because I had an addendum to post after sharing your article.

        My roommate noted how you had to bolster defenses and that sort of thing just to get a “no” out. If you have that much trouble saying “no” to a guy who, by your own account, is not trying to apply pressure, then there is a problem on your end.

        My roommate used to be that person too, until she realized that guys can be more trouble than they’re worth, and there’s no good reason to go through with sex if she’s not feeling it like they are. That kind of self-possession is a perfect defense against Tom, no matter how nice his smile is and how soft his touch is and how much Jane is enjoying making out with him.

        This is a lot like family obligations. Remember when you were a kid and you did things because your folks expected you to? Maybe you had to go to church even though it seemed pointless. But you did it, until it dawned on you one day that you’re an adult and you don’t really owe your parents your Sunday mornings. What a liberating realization that was! Likewise, you don’t owe Tom a roll in the hay.

        FYI, what caught my roommate’s attention was this part:

        “She gives him a flirtatious laugh and says ‘yes, I’m sure.’ She laughs to show him that she’s not a bitch. She smiles flirtatiously because she’s worried about bruising his extremely fragile ego and making him feel rejected. And so she laughs and smiles to stay on his good side. And Tom, seeing Jane laugh, has no idea that he’s made her uncomfortable.”

        So, why’d Jane laugh? Why’d Jane smile flirtatiously? Why’d Jane try so damn hard to stay on his good side? You’ve got the right to be seen as a bitch, if just telling him what you want makes him think you’re a bitch. You’ve got the right to put your desires above his ego and comfort. You’ve got the right to be on whichever side of him works best for you. And if it turns out that Tom doesn’t like that, congratulations, at least you figured it out early enough to break it off without any lasting consequences. In fact, I can’t think of a BETTER time to find out what Tom’s made of than that first make-out session.

      • Chunky Style

        By the way, my roommate DID comment on men not accepting “no”. She rolled her eyes and was quite surprised that you don’t account for how women frequently don’t start out ready for sex but may build up to it, in the course of making out. If Jane isn’t that way, that’s fine — but Tom had never made out with her before, and didn’t know her particular rules. Explaining her rules would fill up 13 words easy.

  • Gooatsee

    I bet the woman who wrote this never had a date in her life.

  • http://www.facebook.com/clinton.kerwin Clinton Kerwin

    Ladies you don’t like being harrassed by men? I have solution for you! HOW ABOUT YOU ASK US OUT??! but since we all know that’s never going to happen, why don’t you respect the “balls” it takes to apporach someone and suck it up.